[Ted Kramer]

Dan Hermann:

If you give TD a max of 3-4 on the Doak scale -- can you please provide for me and others your Doak number for other Jersey-based public courses you have played?

I'd like to get a real good read on how you assign specific course rating numbers according to Doak's formula.

If Jersey public courses are not available -- then chose those nearest to where you reside. Thanks ...

Gents:

On Pine Hill -- you have a marvelous site with plenty of greensites that are simply a paint-by-the-numbers design. The only ones that bear any resemblance to real detail are the long 9th and 10th -- the two best holes on the course by far.

Twisted Dune was clearly concocted but the overall routing and pacing of the holes is indeed well done. I am not a fan of the finale there -- simply a yardage eater in order to end the round.

I have to urge folks opining here if they believe Twisted Dunes is out of character than they need to make a side detour and head to Shore Gate -- it is quite likely the most Frankenstein-oriented creation I have ever played.

While I wont call the greens or greensites at Pine Hill much better than average, I will say this . . .

The greens really come to life when they speed up. That doesn't make them creative, quirky, or show-stopping, but it does make playing the ball into them properly an integral part of scoring.

Any greens can be tough when rolling super fast. But the greens at Pine Hill become more than tough, they become much integrated and connected to the strategy of holes that they are connected to. The following greens/greensites really do come to life and show signs of solid GCA when they speed up . . .

#1
#2!!
#5
#6
#7?
#9!!
#12 - one of the most underated greens on the course
#16

I'll be glad to discuss the details about any of those greens/greensites with anyone who is interested.

And again, comparing the greens/greensites from course to course is utterly laughable in my opinion. . . Pine Hill is light-years ahead.

-Ted

[archie_struthers]

Dear Ted,

Just figured I'd show a little backbone and chime in as to your opinion of my work at Twisted Dune.

Certainly I woudl not compare it to Pine Hill, they are absolutely antithical in genre and the kind of shots required to play well. You can compare their difficulty, however, and clearly Pine Hill is harder, with much more intricate greens complexes.

Although I don't play much of my golf at Twisted Dune , I enjoy the golf course as do many of my friends. Some of them are great players and some of them are not so good.
Most of us have fun at Twisted, which is good! Sometimes we make a lot of birdies, sometimes we don't.

As to your point that there it is " incredibly monotonous" without any redeeming shot values, I'd like to some day have a conversation with you about what is really good and why.

Don't like the second shot to #2? How about when the pin is front?

Did you drive #5 or lay up. If you went for it, did you hit the green or have the short wedge off the downslope? That's a tough shot for me.

I am happy that the walk was OK, that means that I got one thing right!

One thing we can both agree on, I don't like the 17th hole!

LOL

[Mark_Fine]

Archie,
Nice to see you chime in.  I guess in this business you have to take the good with the bad.  Frankly, it works that way in any business.  I thought it took some guts (and talent) to build a unique golf course like Twisted Dune.  If I would have done one thing different (and I might have even mentioned it to you when we went around) is to integrate the dunes more into the strategy of the golf course.  Most are more for atmosphere but in that regard, they do a very nice job.  Most of the press you've gotten about the course has been very positive so I'd focus on that.
Take care,
Mark

[Ted Kramer]

Dear Ted,

Just figured I'd show a little backbone and chime in as to your opinion of my work at Twisted Dune.

Certainly I woudl not compare it to Pine Hill, they are absolutely antithical in genre and the kind of shots required to play well. You can compare their difficulty, however, and clearly Pine Hill is harder, with much more intricate greens complexes.

Although I don't play much of my golf at Twisted Dune , I enjoy the golf course as do many of my friends. Some of them are great players and some of them are not so good.
Most of us have fun at Twisted, which is good! Sometimes we make a lot of birdies, sometimes we don't.

As to your point that there it is " incredibly monotonous" without any redeeming shot values, I'd like to some day have a conversation with you about what is really good and why.

Don't like the second shot to #2? How about when the pin is front?

Did you drive #5 or lay up. If you went for it, did you hit the green or have the short wedge off the downslope? That's a tough shot for me.

I am happy that the walk was OK, that means that I got one thing right!

One thing we can both agree on, I don't like the 17th hole!

LOL

Dear Archie,

This is tough for me.
I want to both back my opinions and be respectful of another man's work. To be honest, and maybe this is a character flaw of mine, if I would have known that you read and posted on this forum I wouldn't have written what I did. If anything that I said earlier was disrespectful, I sincerely ask for your forgiveness, my intention was certainly not to offend you.

With that being said, I'm not a real big fan of Twisted Dune.
A lot of my comments were directed to this group here at GCA.com because of previous conversations/posts. The general feelings presented here is that intricate details, blending man-made elements in a natural manner, and strategic options are paramount in good GCA. Twisted Dune was offered to me as example of "what was right with GCA" while Pine Hill was being defined as "what was wrong with GCA" on more than one occasion.

I didn't feel like there were many details with regards to the various holes at TD. As a matter of fact, many of the holes struck me as being remarkably similar.

The dunes on the edges of the fairways were as obviously out of place as any feature or features that I have ever seen on a golf course. And being that they were so "ever present" it is tough for me to discount them in my opinion of the course.

And there wasn't one hole, except for the par3s that I didn't hit driver on. I didn't find one reason from any of the tees to do anything other than tee it high and let it fly.

As to your specific questions regarding #2 and #5 . . .
I don't remember anything about #2. I even checked the website and couldn't remember the hole.
I hit driver/lob wedge on #5 and missed my birdie putt. I suppose hitting something else, maybe safer, from the tee is an option, but I chose driver without much second guesing. My drive landed in the first cut on the right side of the fairway about 60 yards from the green. The little wedge that followed was one of the more interesting shots of the day.

Archie, I would not say negative things about another person with regards to their work for the sake of being hurtful. While I have no way of knowing whether or not what I wrote was hurtful, I just want you to know that my intentions were to challenge the opinions of many on this site and not to say hurtful things for the sake of being heard.

And I'd be flattered/honored to have a conversation with you about what I think is, "really good and why".

Sincerely,
Ted Kramer

[archie_struthers]

Thanks Ted, apology accepted.

Maybe we can hit it some day.

[Ted Kramer]

Thanks Ted, apology accepted.

Maybe we can hit it some day.

Thank you Archie.

-Ted

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ted, et. al.,

I don't know that playing a golf course in New Jersey in the first week of March presents the golf course as it was intended to play.

[Ted Kramer]

Ted, et. al.,

I don't know that playing a golf course in New Jersey in the first week of March presents the golf course as it was intended to play.

Fair point.
But I will say the this . . .
The course is in great shape right now.
For any of you guys who are fans of the course, you wont be disapointed in the conditions. There was a little brown to the coloring and the ball was bounding very nicely in the fairways.

-Ted

[Jerry Kluger]

I played TD once and I enjoyed it but it felt strange to me.  The feeling I get in that area of NJ are the pines and this is clearly the feeling at Hidden Creek.  It felt very strange when we drove down the road siding the course and all of a sudden there are these mounds/dunes.  While they look good are they really any different from say planting trees lining the holes like they did at Shadow Creek - what makes it okay here?  How about Grand Cypress - people really took JN to task for the mounding - why is it okay at TD?  

[ed_getka]

Archie,
  Nice to see you post on this thread. If you don't mind, I would love it if you could pick a couple of holes that you really like at TD and discuss what you were trying to do with them in terms of strategy, and how you expect the hole to be played. I think it would be interesting to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

[ChrisHervochon]

Ted,
   I'm MAJORLY bummed that you weren't able to retain your membership at The Hill this year.  Perhaps we can get together and play Sand Barrens this year, or you could come out to The Hill.

A couple of comments...
   Twisted Dune is an above average course IMHO, not great, not bad either.  The Dunes, I think, were really done well.  Could more have been done to integrate them with the course?  Probably, but whatever, it is a fun course to play.  I like to make birdies as  much as the next guy.  I personally did not like the 18th, but thought the greensite was cool for whatever reason, I cannot recall.  My hat's off to Archie for designing the course.

Sand Barrens:
   I used to be a junior member out there and think all 27 holes out there are awesome.  The course is usually in great shape, and the design itself is interesting.  The whole course is basically recessed into the land to take advantage of the natural sand deposits below the property.  Even though the greens and fairways are HUGE, it makes the course easy, BUT the countours on the greens I think are brilliant.  When those greens are fast, they require a ton of immagination.

Pine Hill:
   Those greens are like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.  I would say they add little to no value to the golf course when they are slow and beat up (too much play!!!!!).  Although, when they are even moderately fast they add another dimension to the course (well said Mr. Kramer).  Even though I am not a Tom Fazio fan (as i know most of you aren't) he did do a good job designing the greens (or not, but whoever in his office did) to be played with those speeds in mind.

Cheers,


P.S. - Why has nobody mentioned the 7th hole at Pine Hill?  That's a great par 5.  Also I would like to point out the exact semblance of the 5th hole there to one of the par 3s I saw on a Shell's Wonderful World of Golf when they played at World Woods.  Look it up.....

[Ted Kramer]

Ted,
   I'm MAJORLY bummed that you weren't able to retain your membership at The Hill this year.  Perhaps we can get together and play Sand Barrens this year, or you could come out to The Hill.

A couple of comments...
   Twisted Dune is an above average course IMHO, not great, not bad either.  The Dunes, I think, were really done well.  Could more have been done to integrate them with the course?  Probably, but whatever, it is a fun course to play.  I like to make birdies as  much as the next guy.  I personally did not like the 18th, but thought the greensite was cool for whatever reason, I cannot recall.  My hat's off to Archie for designing the course.

Sand Barrens:
   I used to be a junior member out there and think all 27 holes out there are awesome.  The course is usually in great shape, and the design itself is interesting.  The whole course is basically recessed into the land to take advantage of the natural sand deposits below the property.  Even though the greens and fairways are HUGE, it makes the course easy, BUT the countours on the greens I think are brilliant.  When those greens are fast, they require a ton of immagination.

Pine Hill:
   Those greens are like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.  I would say they add little to no value to the golf course when they are slow and beat up (too much play!!!!!).  Although, when they are even moderately fast they add another dimension to the course (well said Mr. Kramer).  Even though I am not a Tom Fazio fan (as i know most of you aren't) he did do a good job designing the greens (or not, but whoever in his office did) to be played with those speeds in mind.

Cheers,


P.S. - Why has nobody mentioned the 7th hole at Pine Hill?  That's a great par 5.  Also I would like to point out the exact semblance of the 5th hole there to one of the par 3s I saw on a Shell's Wonderful World of Golf when they played at World Woods.  Look it up.....

Chris,

How's school?
I'll be around for plenty of golf this year and
I'd be happy to meet you at Sand Barrens or Pine Hill for a few rounds of golf. I'll do my best to have a complete bag of clubs this time, the driver is always useful . . .  especially if you're gonna drag me back to the tips

#7 at PH is a really good par5. One of the better holes on the course. The holes that I mentioned were holes that have greens/greensites that really improve with speed. I think that #7 is one of the better ones even when it is slow. I don't find that the green really has to be rolling fast to make it fun or interesting. But if I was simply naming favorite holes at PH, #7 would DEFINITELY be on the list.

-Ted

[mike_malone]

 Ted,

    For you to plunk down your hard earned money to join Pine Hill you need to be a believer in that style of architecture. Twisted Dune is a fine representative of the exact opposite style.

   If the dunes were closer to play they would be extremely penal. My guess is that Archie was affected to a great extent by his time at Pine Valley. I see big space at TD with strategic options available , but with "death" for the seriously missed shot. That is what I feel at PV.  You can't offer "width" options without space.


  I find that there is quite a lot of elevation change for a flat spot. #2 is  a downhill approach;you spoke of # 4' s wonderful approach; #9 from all the back is downhill off the tee ; there are two greens that sit down among the dunes giving you a downhill look;# 14 is a tough uphill approach as well.

      #3 at 235 yards may have missed your eye. There is a move from left to right up to a ridge top in the center of  the green then a move down to the right to the back of the green. This causes uncertainty in your mind off the tee.

  #13 is another par three that appeals to me. The water on the right is there to cause fear and there is huge space over the left bunker. But if the pin is short right you have a major putting problem from the safer back of the green. So, you don't HAVE to deal with the water unless you want to get close to the hole!

  #15 is a forced carry par three that has a punchbowl feel. Hit it to the back/middle and watch it roll back to the pin.


     My opinion of the greens is that they have several distinct pin placements available with real choices for your approach. For the penal school the penalty must be severe for missing the correct spot; for the strategic you just have a more challenging next shot.


    Tom Paul talks about the big world of architecture. There is room for both penal and strategic. But, I prefer strategic; I think it is more fun to have a shot after a mistake.


     

[archie_struthers]

 

Ed,

In do two holes for you. I'm fond of #2 and #5 as previously discussed. #13 is my favorite par three.

Someday I'll convince Cirba and Ward that eighteen is better than it appears. Very few birdies are made here, no matter what tees are played. It doesn't have to be sexy to be a good hole.

Okay Ed, here goes.

On #2 (430-470 par 4) we attempted to rein in the big hitters a little by narrowing the fairway dramatically at the 290-310 mark. Lots of good players have to hit three-wood here, which brings the left bunker into play. If you don't hit it straight, its pretty easy to hit it thru the fairway into some heavy rough on the right. If you choose driver and hit it straight and long , the second shot is off a slightly downhill lie. This hopefully "twists"  good players as a high shot is harder to hit off same.

For most players the second shot requires a longer iron/ hybrid into a green that falls away and is most receptive to a draw. The fairway tends to kick left to right except for any shot that isn't hit with a lot of height.

The green is undulating and one of the best on the course. I should have taken more chances on the greens, but first time out I erred on the side of caution.  Maybe next time.

#9 was envisioned as a difficult par four, particularly the second shot. The large lake on the left (short way home) is in play for the long hitters. If you try to take the shortcut the ball can easily find the water, particularly when the ground is firm. If you drive it safely to the right your second shot is longer, and the angle to the green worse. Hopefully most people bite and bring the hazard into play more often because of this.

The fairway and green slope severely to the pond on the second shot, making it easy to hold on and miss right. If you do this, its a downhill chip/ bunker shot towards the water.

I am a huge Flynn fan, and number five at Merion has similar stategies.

As it turned out we play nine as a par five. As a public golf course it is just too tough as originally designed and more fun for everyone this way.  We built a new tee way back in the hill that lengthens the hole, which will be in action this year. My good friend Tim DeBaufre helped me with this hole, which made it special for me!

Ed, thanks for your interest in my intent!

[Ted Kramer]

Ted,

    For you to plunk down your hard earned money to join Pine Hill you need to be a believer in that style of architecture. Twisted Dune is a fine representative of the exact opposite style.

   If the dunes were closer to play they would be extremely penal. My guess is that Archie was affected to a great extent by his time at Pine Valley. I see big space at TD with strategic options available , but with "death" for the seriously missed shot. That is what I feel at PV.  You can't offer "width" options without space.


  I find that there is quite a lot of elevation change for a flat spot. #2 is  a downhill approach;you spoke of # 4' s wonderful approach; #9 from all the back is downhill off the tee ; there are two greens that sit down among the dunes giving you a downhill look;# 14 is a tough uphill approach as well.

      #3 at 235 yards may have missed your eye. There is a move from left to right up to ridge top in the green then a move down to the right to the back of the green. This causes uncertainty in your mind off the tee.
  #13 is another par three that appeals to me. The water on the right is there to cause fear and there is huge space over the left bunker. But if the pin is short right you have a major putting problem from the safer back of the green. So, you don't HAVE to deal with the water unless you want to get close to the hole!

  #15 is a forced carry par three that has a punchbowl feel. Hit it to the back/middle and watch it roll back to the pin.


     My opinion of the greens is that they have several distinct pin placements available with real choices for your approach. For the penal school the penalty must be severe for missing the correct spot; for the strategic you just have a more challenging next shot.


    Tom Paul talks about the big world of architecture. There is room for both penal and strategic. But, I prefer strategic; I think it is more fun to have a shot after a mistake.


     

Interesting points . . .
And I do agree with the idea of offering a shot after a mistake.
Twisted certainly isn't demanding off the tee. You have to hit is WAY OFFLINE to be in those dunes.

Pine Hill is a little too penal for me to call it ideal, but not overly so.

You wrote that, "If the dunes were closer to play they would be extremely penal". You are right. If the dunes, with all that tall grass on them were closer to the fairways they would be increasingly more penal.

My comment had more to do with putting some big rolling hills/dunes in the fairways. Make the landscape of the fairways match that of the edges. Why have super-flat fairways alongside dunescape after dunscape.

I'm not looking to pinch the fairways at all. I like the width, I just don't like the obvious containment nature of the dunes. If some of that dirt was used to create some movement and mounds in the fairways, the overall feel of the place would be much more authentic. And I'm guessing that those mounds could be used to create an awful lot of the strategy that you really like.

Now to the holes that you mentioned . . .

#3 - WIDE OPEN in front. I played the back tees and wouldn't really consider any 235 yard hole a birdie opportunity. It was an easy decision for me to hit 4 iron short of the green, chip on, and have a good look at par. I think that hole would be more interesting if it was shorter, more people might try to hit it close and bring some of the trouble into play. If you can hit the ball 210-230 yards, reasonably straight, you are looking at a pretty simple up and down for par at worst. I imagine that you can bring a very big number into play if you miss that green left or right.

#4 - Great approach . . .couldn't agree more.

#2 - I'm starting to remember that hole a little bit. I thought it was very bland.

#9 - That tee shot begs for a big drive. I hit a lousy drive and had no trouble making par.

#13 - Another long par3. A more testing hole than many on the course. The green is big and didn't really do much to interest me. The water right can make you a little nervous I suppose, but I felt that the green was big enough to reduce any real anxiety. On a windy day that hole could be a completely different story . . .

#15 - I don't really remember it.


As to your comments regarding plunking down my hard earned money to join Pine Hill and believing in that style of GCA . . .

Is Pine Hill my idea of great GCA, bullet-proof in design?
The short answer is no.
I think PH is clearly an ABOVE AVERAGE DESIGN that has a handful of OUTSTANDING holes. And you know what . . .
the price is right.

A lot of things went into my decsion to plunk down my hard earned money and I don't mind sharing what some of those things were:

1. I thought the course would challenge me for years to come. I thought my game would improve as I played there. PH demands good golf shots if it is going to yield good scores.

2. My wife could join with a nominal extra fee. Being new to the area, Pine Hill was/is a GREAT place for me to spend time with my wife and meet other couples.

3. Access to the other Club Max Courses is/was a HUGE FACTOR for me.

4. I love the membership director. She made my wife and I feel very comfortable with our first "private club experience".

5. I like the idea of a non-member owned Club. I don't have any desire to deal with the politics involved with many member-owned clubs.

-Ted

[Ted Kramer]

. . . #9 was envisioned as a difficult par four, particularly the second shot. The large lake on the left (short way home) is in play for the long hitters. If you try to take the shortcut the ball can easily find the water, particularly when the ground is firm. If you drive it safely to the right your second shot is longer, and the angle to the green worse. Hopefully most people bite and bring the hazard into play more often because of this.

The fairway and green slope severely to the pond on the second shot, making it easy to hold on and miss right. If you do this, its a downhill chip/ bunker shot towards the water.

I am a huge Flynn fan, and number five at Merion has similar stategies.

As it turned out we play nine as a par five. As a public golf course it is just too tough as originally designed and more fun for everyone this way.  We built a new tee way back in the hill that lengthens the hole, which will be in action this year. My good friend Tim DeBaufre helped me with this hole, which made it special for me!

Ed, thanks for your interest in my intent!

That is very interesting to know regarding #9.
Maybe I'm a bit of a masochist, but I think it would be a very good par 4.

-Ted

[mike_malone]

 Ted,

      I will have to think about your fairway undulation concern the next time I play TD.


   I imagine it is very expensive to create artificial undulation in fairways. I have been disappointed so far where I have seen this done. Too often the ball just collects in the low areas.

[George Pazin]

This developed into a pretty interesting and informative thread.

One question for Ted - how did you feel about PH the first time you played it? Were the greens speedy? Did your feelings grow over time?

It's not for nothing than the Good Doctor felt most couldn't be objective about their home course! I know I can't.

[Ted Kramer]

This developed into a pretty interesting and informative thread.

One question for Ted - how did you feel about PH the first time you played it? Were the greens speedy? Did your feelings grow over time?

It's not for nothing than the Good Doctor felt most couldn't be objective about their home course! I know I can't.

The first time I played Pine Hill was about 110 degrees and simply brutal. I was in a cart with a buddy from work playing behind what could have been the slowest group on the planet.

When I got home and thought back on my round I started to think that there might have been a lot of good stuff out there that I just couldn't appreciate due to the circumstances.

The 17th hole made a strong impression on me after my first round.

My second trip to Pine Hill was completely different. It was on a Sunday afternoon, maybe 3p. I went out as a single and I was walking. The weather was perfect, and the course was in SUPERB shape. I might have been the only person on the course, I didn't see another person during my play of the front 9. After I putted out on 9 I went inside to discuss membership.

-Ted

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Ted

Since Pine Hill went semi-private towards the goal of full private, have the green speeds increased in prime season any? That was my complaint about playing there before-very slow greens.

Steve

[Ted Kramer]

Ted

Since Pine Hill went semi-private towards the goal of full private, have the green speeds increased in prime season any? That was my complaint about playing there before-very slow greens.

Steve

The greens were on the slow side during the summer months last year. Lots of courses in the area lost greens and had major problems in 05 .. .Pine Hill was perfectly playable the entire year.

The greens really sped up towards the fall with September being the best conditioned that I have ever seen the course . . .it was so much fun to play.

The Super at PH does a great job. I'd like to see the course play faster and firmer through the greens, but considering all of the issues connected to trying to take a public couse private . . .Kevin does an OUTSTANDING JOB!!

[ed_getka]

Archie,
   Thanks for the response. If you don't mind bearing with me, could you explain what Matt and Mike are missing about #18? What were you trying to do on that hole and do you think you succeeded?
    A question re: #2. You say the green falls away and is most receptive to a draw. That seems contrdictory unless the green is set up on a diagonal. Could you elaborate on that a little?
 
From what everyone is saying TD has plenty of width and the greens are somewhat benign. Were the dunes used at all to hide openings into greens? Such as a dune blocking part of the entrance to the green, such that there is a distinct advantage to driving to the proper side of the fairway, to have a better look at the green.

[ChrisHervochon]

I've played Pine Hill once a few years back when the greens were rolling at 11, and thought the course was outstanding when they are at that speed.  I am not a fan of ultra quick greens in all circumstances, just some circumstances.  #10 green, I think, and probably #2 and #3 are waaaaaaaaaaay better with faster greens.  

Ted,
  You're absolutely right, Kevin does an incredible job with the course.  You're also right that it should play faster through the green.  Constant mud balls in the fairway, combined with the length from the back tee and negative roll are no fun.  However, it is true that the course must be "green" in order to attract members.  How he kept that grass a live all summer is still beyond me....

[Ted Kramer]

I've played Pine Hill once a few years back when the greens were rolling at 11, and thought the course was outstanding when they are at that speed.  I am not a fan of ultra quick greens in all circumstances, just some circumstances.  #10 green, I think, and probably #2 and #3 are waaaaaaaaaaay better with faster greens.  

Ted,
  You're absolutely right, Kevin does an incredible job with the course.  You're also right that it should play faster through the green.  Constant mud balls in the fairway, combined with the length from the back tee and negative roll are no fun.  However, it is true that the course must be "green" in order to attract members.  How he kept that grass a live all summer is still beyond me....

Chris,

How fast do you think the greens were for the Club Championship last year? I thought that they were perfect at that speed.

-Ted

[archie_struthers]

Ed Getka,

As to what's wrong with #18, I respectfully disagree with both Mike and Matt, but that's what this is all about. We should agree to play them a better ball match and beat them on their least favorite holes.LOL!  

Here's how I see #18. The tee shot is fairly benign as the landing area is very large, even more so than all the other holes. The angles of attack mean everything to me, and 18 is no exception. To get a good angle at the green you have to hit it long and left, either by carrying some huge dunes or hooking the tee shot.  By doing this you get a straight look at the large green which is slightly elevated and falls away from front to back and right to left. If you drive it right side you have to hit a fade on your second or risk skipping it thru the green and into the left bunker, which juts in.  This is particularly true for anyone not hitting a short iron into the hole, or coming in from the left side of the fairway. Again the goal is to make players choose the more dangerous angle to get a shot at birdie.

Both of my compadres (Mike & Matt) felt the hole was a little vanilla, and just long. Here's where we differ. In order to give the shorter hitter a reasonable shot at the green, you can't put a big bunker in front, you should give them an option. A good example of this is Philly Crickets 9th hole (Tillinghast). Here distance completely overwhelms accuracy. (ps Philly Cricket is in my top five in Philly)

All this being said, I'm ok with #18 at Twisted today, although there are other holes I'd tinker with.

As to dunes jutting into play?  #5, 10 ,11 and 12 do it to some extent, but it might have been interesting to extend some fingers. I think that #11 green complex is integrated into the dunes pretty well.  

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