Cuscowilla...what am I missing?

« **Reply #25 on:** February 06, 2006, 06:05:53 PM »

Gary,
We've never had to edge our greens yet. We've actually had to remove some of our cloth barrier on every green. The low spots in our greens where water usually runs wasremain wet. The barrier wasn't allowing the water to leave the green. It resulted in soft areas, extra aerifying and plythuim blight. I beleive that the cloth barriar was installed to preserve our outlines, but also, when the greens were renovated to USGA specs, the surrounds were not touched. I believe part of the reason the cloth is in place was to avoid any contamination during the renovation.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #26 on:** February 06, 2006, 06:34:32 PM »

Tony,

That all makes sense. Learn something new today. I just couldn't figure out how C&C would make the greens so severe and then plant bent grass. As you probably know though, you can get a ball on tiff-eagle going down grain and it can be just as fast as any bent grass. Just a lot more maintenance to get and keep'em that fast. I guess with .125 to .110 cutting height now becoming more acceptable the less severe contours we'll see.

Gary

« **Reply #27 on:** February 14, 2006, 07:26:47 PM »

Quote from: Jeff_Stettner on February 06, 2006, 02:53:13 PM

Mark,
I would really like to know what makes Chechessee mediocre.

Thanks in advance.

Mark,
The following is an excerpt from the Doak scale:

Quote

2: mediocre course with little architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. (Play it in a scramble and drink a lot of beer).

3: about the level of the avg. course in the world.

Are you saying Chechessee is a 2?

Cheers

« **Reply #28 on:** September 26, 2006, 07:51:43 PM »

Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on February 06, 2006, 09:23:24 AM

Cusco reminded me a bit of Hidden Creek-Left me wondering what the hype was about. I think that C&C do an incredible job of building minimulist courses, such at Friar's Head, Sand Hills and Bandon Trails, but when they have to created something ot of nothing, their designs seem to be a little bit second teir-Warren Course, Cusco and Hidden Creek.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Tony:

I'm reviving this blast from the past . . .

Have you seen Cuscowilla again since your first visit? I'm puzzled as to how you could compare the property at Cusco with Hidden Creek? It's far more dramatic, the tree growth is well separated so most everything in the trees is playable sometimes allowing wild hooks or cuts which actually work real well off of pine straw with an up lie.

The natural roll and heave of the property and strategic use of internal ponds is near perfect. The bite off what you can chew tee ball on 4 is a perfect example.

Cuscowilla's greens are severe and given I play most my golf at Engineers I can say they are less severe than ECC but maintained far faster on average. I think 9.5-10 is an ideal speed at Cuscowilla, anything over that is over the top. I've played them at 11 and they get goofy.

BTW, I saw you emphasize the front to back orientation of the greens but a few do slope away from the player. 4, back half of 5, 8, back part of 10, back part of 11, 13, and parts of 15.

Point being there's a lot more to the greensites than front to back tilt.

If you've not been back there you owe it to yourself to make the drive. I fell flat out in love the first time around. Not everyone will have that kind of response but there's lots and lots of nuance and sophistication there.

« **Reply #29 on:** September 26, 2006, 08:29:42 PM »

I have played the Warren Course many times and I do like it a lot. Is it a great course? No. But it's definitely a good one, espescially considering the site they had for it. Although when it's firm and fast (almost all summer long) and the wind's blowing it can really beat you down.

« **Reply #30 on:** September 27, 2006, 02:58:24 AM »

This thread is great, I love a good scrap once in a while!

Round up the wagons!

From images you can see Chechessee is at least a 5 $:-\$

« **Reply #31 on:** September 27, 2006, 06:02:51 AM »

Jason,
Forst of all, let me say thanks for bringing this thread back to life!

Secondly, there are no comparisons in the property of Cusco and HC. I think that HC is like Cusco in the fact that pople will either love it or walk away wondering what all the fuss was about. I didn't care for HC, in fact and really have a hard time remembering the holes and I've already commented about Cusco. I know that there are more out there that feel similar to how I do, but might just be afraid to speak up. I know how highly it rated and what it's above, I walked away very disappointed. I've never stated that it's a poor course, just definalty NOT in a league with Sand Hills, Friar's Head or Bandon Trials, though some think that it's equal.
I really don't have a desire to play there anytime soon for seveal reasons. It just wasn't my cup of tea and that's okay. I know that it's loved by many, but I know that there are quite a few that can see through the "C&C beer goggles....."

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #32 on:** September 27, 2006, 06:55:51 AM »

I pretty much agree with Tony comments, neither are in the same league as Friar's Head or Sand Hills, and Bandon Trails is somewhere in between, good but not great.

« **Reply #33 on:** September 27, 2006, 07:56:19 AM »

I think it's silly to be comparing Sand Hills to Cusco . . . the properties are so different. No course built where Cusco is could rival Sand Hills, all other things being equal, and since C&C did well at both sites all other things are equal and there's no comparison.

I do think, however, that Cusco. is so fundamentally sound that it's virtually impossible to play it and not recognize it's design . . . even if the style of golf is not your cup of tea.

« **Reply #34 on:** September 27, 2006, 08:03:09 AM »

Jason,

Please explain the 3rd...Is it always a bottleneck..or is pace of play due to design out of bounds in this discussion..

« **Reply #35 on:** September 27, 2006, 08:12:27 AM »

Having never been there, I can only offer the following . . .
The pictures that I have seen make me think that I would LOVE it.

-Ted

« **Reply #36 on:** September 27, 2006, 08:59:39 AM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on September 27, 2006, 08:03:09 AM

Jason,

Please explain the 3rd...Is it always a bottleneck..or is pace of play due to design out of bounds in this discussion..

JK how often have you waited on 3tee?

During member play I can't recall having a group on 3 green when I've gotten to the tee.

« **Reply #37 on:** September 27, 2006, 09:02:59 AM »

Quote from: Ted Kramer on September 27, 2006, 08:12:27 AM

Having never been there, I can only offer the following . . .
The pictures that I have seen make me think that I would LOVE it.

-Ted

I may be heading down later this month and if so I'll take and post a bunch of photos.

The course looks and feels and plays like Shinnecock meets Pinehurst.

« **Reply #38 on:** September 27, 2006, 09:36:11 AM »

"The course looks and feels and plays like Shinnecock meets Pinehurst"
Whoa....wow, now your putting Cusco in a league that Sand Hills really can't get into...yet. Cusco is good, though a little crazy from my liking. I'd play about a dozen course within 1 hour of Cusco before I'd play there again. I wonder if it wasn't a C&C, how many people would take their blinders off.....so many assume that all C&C courses are good, just because they are C&C..similar to how many feel that Fazio's stuff isn't that good, just because it's Fazio....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #39 on:** September 27, 2006, 10:02:27 AM »

Tony,
I agree with you about built-in bias in favor of C&C, and often against Fazio (for example). But to some extent, bias of this sort is like an old saying; it gets repeated because there is so much truth to it. If there wasn't, the repitition would stop.

Certainly, it would have taken Cuscowilla a lot longer to be seen appreciated if it had not been a C&C course, but the course can now stand on it's own merit; Bob Crosby's post on another thread is a tremendous hole-by-hole evaluation of Cuscowilla and it's marvelous strategic elements. We could argue endlessly where Cuscowilla should be in various rankings both on the state and national level, but I sincerely don't believe that it can be argued that it isn't a great golf course.

There aren't a half-dozen courses more worth seeing in Georgia, much less a dozen within an hour, are there?

« **Reply #40 on:** September 27, 2006, 10:20:33 AM »

Between this and the other thread, plus other comments, I see so many extolling the virtues of the 13th at Cuscowilla. I am sorry, but that is lost on me. It's a pretty boring hole. About 440 yards. Practically straight, with the flattest green on the course.

10 is also a disappointing hole. Extend the green closer to the lake, and cut down the tree behind the green.

I like 14, you don't see 650 uphill every day.

16 is pretty average, the green doesn't seem to play as severe as the others even though it tilts considerably.

18 is extremely difficult.

« **Reply #41 on:** September 27, 2006, 10:52:56 AM »

I've never played a C&C course . . .
I belong to a Fazio course.
I have no built in bias in that regard.
I just think the pics look great.

Shinne meets Pinehurst is serious praise. But like I said, I've never been there so I really can't comment.

-Ted

« **Reply #42 on:** September 27, 2006, 11:38:44 AM »

John -

Let's go play Cusco someday. I'll learn you about the 13th.

Bob

« **Reply #43 on:** September 27, 2006, 12:29:05 PM »

Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on September 27, 2006, 09:36:11 AM

"The course looks and feels and plays like Shinnecock meets Pinehurst"
Whoa....wow, now your putting Cusco in a league that Sand Hills really can't get into...yet. Cusco is good, though a little crazy from my liking. I'd play about a dozen course within 1 hour of Cusco before I'd play there again. I wonder if it wasn't a C&C, how many people would take their blinders off.....so many assume that all C&C courses are good, just because they are C&C..similar to how many feel that Fazio's stuff isn't that good, just because it's Fazio....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Tony:

Perhaps C&C are not your cup of tea but if you don't recognize Cuscowilla's strengths I genuinely believe you're seriously "missing" something.

Cuscowilla provides plenty of width off the tee to lure the player into a false sense of security as it's all about the second shot there. There's plenty of ground game, conditions are uniformly firm and fast and the greens are a blast to play so long as they're not too quick.

Candidly, Tony, it wouldn't matter who designed Cuscowilla, it's the second best in GA and is certainly a top 10 and likely top 5 in the South proper!

I think it's important to check our admiration for particular gcas and we must be careful not to drink the "cool aid," however throwing greatness under the bus is equally a shame. While you may not prefer the pine tree and/or lake setting and the green undulation might be too severe for your likeing . . . the strategic, heroic and penal elements are alive everywhere . . . the course is a wonderful walk with intimate hole transitions. In short, to not recognize Cusco's architectual strength does mean you are "missing" something rather elemental in golf course architecture.

« **Reply #44 on:** September 27, 2006, 07:54:10 PM »

Common Jason,
Top 5 in the south? I don't like to talk much of Long Cove, but Cusco can't hold a candle to LCC, and were not even a Top 5 in the south. Top 5 in the south would have to include some of the following: The Ocean Course, Augusta, Pinehurst #2, Seminole, TPC, Wade Hampton, Long Cove, Peachtree...I'd even take East Lake, Hawks Ridge...Cusco is in a lower class.
As for a dozen closer that I'd rather play:
Capital City-Crabapple
East Lake
Hawk's Ridge
Atlanta Athletic Club (both)
TPC of Sugerloaf
Peachtree
Ansley GC
Atlanta CC
GC of Georgia (though not my first choice)
Great Waters @ Reynolds
........ok, Cuscowilla.....

Jason,
Keep in mind that I'm a bog fan of fair golf where things are in front of the golfer.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #45 on:** September 27, 2006, 08:00:52 PM »

Tony:

So we've got a member at Cuscowilla debating with the super at Long Cove. We're not exactly impartial but I'll tell you this, Cuscowilla is top 5 south, better than everything you list save ANGC, Seminole and Pinehurst and, eventually, the merits of the courses on your list will be compared to the merits of Cuscowilla as opposed to the social status of the same and Cuscowilla will gets its due.

It's 2006, by 2026 Cuscowilla will be properly viewed in the gca world.

BTW, last time I checked, folks in the South weren't all that keen on change, thus another reason people think East Lake, for example, is better than Cuscowilla.

Tony, TPC Sugarloaf over Cusco?

Is this entire thread of yours a ruse?

« **Reply #46 on:** September 27, 2006, 08:08:33 PM »

"Jason,
Keep in mind that I'm a big fan of fair golf where things are in front of the golfer."

I'm guessing that you missed the above part....
We're spliting hairs. I guess that's where you're there and I'm here. Maybe one day we can have a home and home....

Jason, don't get me wrong, I don't believe that Cusco is bad by any means, in fact, I'd play it over any public course in my area, including Harbor Town and several of the private courses also. It just didn't stand up to the hype that I was expecting-After hearing all about Sand Hills and working at Friar's Head, I guess I thought it would have some similar "WOW" factor.....
That's what I love about this website...it's all opinions and as long as we always remember that and things don't get nasty, we can all have a good, clean time....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #47 on:** September 27, 2006, 08:13:55 PM »

Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on September 27, 2006, 08:08:33 PM

"Jason,
Keep in mind that I'm a big fan of fair golf where things are in front of the golfer."

I'm guessing that you missed the above part....
We're spliting hairs. I guess that's where you're there and I'm here. Maybe one day we can have a home and home.... Jason, don't get me wrong, I don't believe that Cusco is bad by any means, in fact, I'd play it over any public course in my area, including Harbor Town and several of the private courses also. It just didn't stand up to the hype that I was expecting-After hearing all about Sand Hills and working at Friar's Head, I guess I thought it would have some similar "WOW" factor.....
That's what I love about this website...it's all opinions and as long as we always remember that and things don't get nasty, we can all have a good, clean time....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Tony:

2 things:

1) what do you mean by "in front of the golfer?" ; and

2) there's no WOW factor site in GA that could compare to SH or FH's site so you certainly had false expectations in that regard.

Cuscowilla is the poster child for minimalist design (save the real estate) and it's rather unfortunate, as you make clear in your post above, that it's overlooked by many b/c it wants the prestigious ultra private club environs.

Substance over form Mr. Nysse . . . Substance over form!!

« **Reply #48 on:** September 27, 2006, 08:24:42 PM »

Jason,
I'll put it simply for you-I LIKE TO SEE ALL THE OPTIONS IN FRONT OF ME. I like the fault to be on me if the golf shot isn't what I planned it to be, not some well struck shot that gets rejected because of a burried elephant, rolls down an hill in into the woods...I like to see what I'm hitting at...make sense?
I'm not talking about the site of Friars and Sand Hills. The merits of the courses stand alone. Get over the site issues... I really have no issue with Chechessee and the land there isn't anything special...it's just good golf holes.....Cusco isn't in the class that you wish it was...pride of a member? Maybe, I've yet to see a member bash the course that they pay every year to play.....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #49 on:** September 27, 2006, 09:46:24 PM »

Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on September 27, 2006, 08:24:42 PM

Jason,
I'll put it simply for you-I LIKE TO SEE ALL THE OPTIONS IN FRONT OF ME. I like the fault to be on me if the golf shot isn't what I planned it to be, not some well struck shot that gets rejected because of a burried elephant, rolls down an hill in into the woods...I like to see what I'm hitting at...make sense?

Tony:

I'm trying to keep in mind Tommy's request for more civility here so I will say only this, while I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I simply cannot respect your views on golf course architecture. Your admission quoted above betrays a deeply misguided view of gca that, unfortunately, many people have, often some of the very best players too. It's why so many average courses with exclusive memberships are well regarded and it's the reason why you'll never get what golf course architecture is all about.

Jason

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