Tom,

Maybe you got a point. I just don't think you give him credit for his work. It seems in every way justifiable to say that he was responsible for the courses you mentioned. Of course many of them have been redesigned in some form but he still did the initial routing and design.

I just don't think you give him credit for his work. It seems in every way justifiable to say that he was responsible for the courses you mentioned.

Phillip
What exactly is Old Tom responsible for at those places?

Phil
You said: "It was during his second trip to St. Andrews in 1898 that Tillinghast came back enamored with the idea to design golf courses. It was Old Tom's influence that brought this about."

Where can I find the documentation to back this up? Did Tilly ever say he became enamored with the idea of designing a golf course at St. Andrews in 1898 and that is was Old Tom's influence that brought this about?

As far as I can tell you just made it up.

Yes, Tilly mentioned other architects and features: off the top of my head Crump, Colt, Wilson, Taylor and Macdonald. What does the fact that Tilly did or didn't mention other architects have to do with this? Are you saying if he didn't mention other architects it is OK to invent a scenerio in which an unmentioned architect had a profound influence upon his architectural aspirations.

Phillip
That is a vague response....I'm looking for documented information. What exactly did he do at Prestwick? Prestwick is dramatically different today, I think most would acknowledge that today, including Geoff.

County Down? Westward Ho? Dornoch? Muirfield?

Is he responsible for the Valley of Sin?

Does that quote from Hutchinson have anything to do with golf design? Everyone loved Old Tom, including Hutchinson, as I said he was respected golf figure and golfer. A good designer of golf courses...I'm still waiting on the evidence.

Phillip.
I believe custodian would translate more accurately to keeper of the green.

I'm not doubting he did create the Valley of Sin, I frankly don't know if he did or did not, what is your source? And why were these new greens built in the first place (without the knowledge of the links committee)?

And the other courses?

Tom, you are constantly looking through a one-sided piece of glass. You tell Philip that, "I'm looking for documented information." yet you make the statement, "Did anyone mention Old Tom--the talented and knowledgable architect? No. Is there a reason for that? I believe so."

Where is YOUR DOCUMENTED INFORMATION to make this more than a "less than a hunch" on you rpart?

I am willing to accept that you might have validity in your statement, but when another theory is presented that has at least a minimum of reasoning and proof behind it, despite it not even disagreeing with your theory, for that is all it is, you take issue with it for no apparent reason that is consistent with your own statements.

Tom, you didn't answer my question and I won't let you off the hook on that. I asked you 2 questions. The first was, "And by the way, in his not one, but many hundreds of articles, how often did Tilly write about any other architect, friend or foe? In these very few instances, did he ever mention personal discussions with the architect mention and the features of their designs as they explained them to him?"

Your answer tried to give the impression that you answered BOTH, but clearly you didn't, for where in your answer, "Yes, Tilly mentioned other architects and features: off the top of my head Crump, Colt, Wilson, Taylor and Macdonald. What does the fact that Tilly did or didn't mention other architects have to do with this? Are you saying if he didn't mention other architects it is OK to invent a scenerio in which an unmentioned architect had a profound influence upon his architectural aspirations." does it at all respond to this question, "In these very few instances, did he ever mention personal discussions with the architect mention and the features of their designs as they explained them to him?"

So Tom, for someone who states that he is so strongly against theory without documentation, you certainly make attempts to answer valid questions posed to you.

The reason for my two questions are simple. Yes, as you noted, Tilly did write about other architects and on occasion spoke about their work or designs, though NEVER in a manner that stated that I want to imitate this style or he has inspired my work at...

Does this mean that he wasn't impressed enough by the work of others that he didn't make attempts to imitate distinct styles and features? Of course not. He even went to great pains to assert that HE was the first to imitate the Mid-Surrey style of Alpinisation in America in his first real course at Shawnee.

Did he ever write about being enamored of the architectural style of the architect of Surrey and mention him by name? No, yet he was influenced by him.

According to you, if there is no written statement by name that architect A did this and I am influenced by it by another architect, then that person wasn't and anyone who concludes so has, as you stated about me, "just made it up."

Yet you can state that "Did anyone mention Old Tom--the talented and knowledgable architect? No. Is there a reason for that? I believe so" and NOT PROVIDE ANY DOCUMENTATION for this less than hunch and not be taken to task for itbased upon your own written demands for proof?

Tom, your stubborn reasoning in this and total misunderstanding of what I have written on this thread is surprising to me.

So there is no misunderstanding, All I said was that Tilly was INSPIRED by Old Tom. I never once claimed that Old Tom spoke with him about golf course architecture and/or course design, though to think he didn't is bordering on stupidity (this is a quality I don't ascribe to you). When have golfers ever not talked about how a course played, the troubles, hazards and features of it, with other golfers... especially when they meet someone of notoriety in the game?

Are you stating that Old Tom DIDN'T talk course features, design or architecture with Tilly? If so, what do you base THAT on?

Tom, we both have theories and ideas that we have come to believe as to motivations of people in the game now long dead. There is no way to prove that either is truth, so all I ask is that you extend the same courtesy to my conjecture that you do your own, for that is all it is.

Rich
When did Old Tom design these holes? Was there a links at Dorncoh prior to his visit?

Rich
When did Old Tom design these holes? Was there a links at Dorncoh prior to his visit?

Tom

You know the answers to those questions.  You don't need me to tel lyou again, do you?

His work is mentioned in almost every book on the subject.

Why do you think it is so?

Which books? Hutchinson's Golf greens and greenkeeping? Bauer's book? Colt's book? MacKenzie's book? Low's book? Simpson's book? Thomas's book? Hunter's book? Macdonald's book? Ross's book?

Phil
Yes. Off the top of my head Tilly wrote about discusions he had with Crump and Colt. I don't recall what he wrote about Ross...perhaps you recall.  He thought so much of Lees he hired him or partnered with him.
 
I'm not sure what your point is...are you saying if he did not mention an architect by name it is OK to invent a scenario in which the unmentioned architect had a profound influence upon his design aspirations?

"Are you stating that Old Tom DIDN'T talk course features, design or architecture with Tilly? If so, what do you base THAT on?"

We have no idea. In the absense of any evidence it is ludicrous to claim his aspirations to design were largely due to the influence of Old Tom.

"Yet you can state that "Did anyone mention Old Tom--the talented and knowledgable architect? No. Is there a reason for that? I believe so" and NOT PROVIDE ANY DOCUMENTATION for this less than hunch and not be taken to task for itbased upon your own written demands for proof?"

What kind of logic is that? You require written documentation that there is no written documentation?

Read through the books listed above, and add Tilly's articles as well, do you find anyone claiming Old Tom was a talented and knoweldgable architect?

Rich
I don't know the answer...what is it?

From what I understand there were a number of controversial changes to the Old Course around 1905 or 1906.

Rich
I'm not familar with John McLeod's history, perhaps you could fill us all in, afterall this is a discusion group, I'm sure there are others who don't know the answer either, and would be interested in knowing. Please educate us.

Regarding the changes in 1905 and 1906, I do know the pros and cons of the changes were hotly debated in the press...with just about every big name in the game weighing in.

"It was during his second trip to St. Andrews in 1898 that Tillinghast came back enamored with the idea to design golf courses. It was Old Tom's influence that brought this about."

Phil
This thread asked the question, who had the biggest impact on early American golf architecture. You said Old Tom. If you read your quote above, you did not write Old Tom inspired Tilly to love the game, and that love for the game eventually developed into a desire to design golf courses. You said he became enamored with idea of designing golf courses and it was Old Tom who brought this about. A big difference I'd say, very misleading IMO.

But I'm glad to see you appear to be backing away from the direct Old Tom architectural connection...I believe you were grasping for straws on that one.

Did Tillinghast state he became enamored with designing golf courses following his 1898 visit to St. Andrews or is that an educated guess on your part?

Quote from: TEPaul on Today at 09:35:43am
Did Tom Morris leave them with any architectural template or architectural philosophy to take things to that new level? Did he show any of them a way to do that?

From Rich Goodale:
 
"Yes, Tom, it's called the Old Course, which is substantially unchanged since OTM stopped working there after 38 years in the post of greenkeeper.  No, he didn't "design" it, but it looks the way it does today because of what he did."

Rich:

What did he do there as the greenkeeper for 38 years that left architects in the future with an architectural template or architectural philosophy to take the art to a more sophisticated level? And should what he did there be considered the primary influence on North American golf course architecture? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm asking you to supply some details and perhaps the architectural reasons why you think that's true.

Pine Valley hasn't changed much either since Eb Steinger retired around 1977 as the greenkeeper after 56 years. He was very respected in his profession. Do you think architects in the future should consider PVGC's greenkeeper for 56 years, Eb Steineger some primary influence on their architecture too?