[Doug Siebert]

I used to play in some pretty big money matches back in college from time to time, and I'd mostly play with the same guys.  We all knew each other and knew we were honest so there were no problems.  There was this one guy who I'll call Cary (because that was his name) who we knew and had a reputation as a cheater, sort of something we'd heard, we hadn't ever played with him.  He was one of those guys if you ran into him at the bar that night and he'd say "hey Doug, saw you on the course today, how'd you shoot" no matter what I shot, he'd say he shot 2-3 shots lower than me.  Maybe he was just better than me, but anyone who ALWAYS beats me is going to shooting some mid to upper 60s on his really good days, and not just beating my 75s with a 72 and 83s with an 81 every damn time!

So anyway, one time one of our guys doesn't show and Cary happens to be there so we play with him.  We're playing our money game and he wants in and we're doing everything we can to discourage it but none of us have the guts to just say upfront that we don't trust you, so we let him play.  He hits into some bad places here and there, and on the 6th hole he hit a shot somewhere I knew would be really hard to find, but somehow he came up with it almost immediately.  Since we're all walking, he's over there alone so we can't really see what's going on (maybe that's one thing in favor of carts)

So at the turn, one of my buddies is sure he didn't really find his ball back on the 6th, and he wants us to watch him really good.  On the 12th hole Cary duck hooks it into a pine tree and it ricochets into some deep grass.  The rest of us successfully cut the dogleg without the duck hook so his ball is on our way so we all help him look for it.

We hunt around for a couple minutes and find a couple balls, but not his.  Cary kind of walks away from us a bit, and then announces he's found his ball.  My buddy Jim is asking him, "are you SURE that's your ball?", and Cary says he's sure, that its got his mark on it, and he's pointing at it like he wants us to inspect it and see he's telling the truth.  So then Jim pulls a ball out of his pocket, and says he found it a minute ago and its not only got Cary's mark on it, its also got a bit of a scrape and some tree sap on it from the tree he hit, and asks to see the ball Cary found and says he bets it is shiny and unblemished!  Cary's looking like a deer caught in the headlights and Jim just goes ballistic on him and basically tells him if he doesn't get the hell out of there he's not going to be able to swing a club for the rest of the summer.

Now the funny thing is that Jim had just found some random ball in the weeds and just TOLD Cary it was his ball because he was so sure Cary was cheating and wasn't smart enough to keep balls sticky with pine sap handy in his pocket

[Sean_A]

Yea, I was called once for cheating in a city tournament.  My ball was down the middle, but slightly plugged.  So I lifted the ball without marking to identify it.  A guy called me out right away.  He asked if I marked before lifting.  I was not in the habit of doing this as I don't play loads of comps.  Man, that was embarrasing. 

The usual thing I see people doing is knocking around in trees with practice swings.  I have never called anybody on it even if it may have improved his swing.  The  other usual thing is putting when a putt is given.  I don't like it when guys do this.  I guess it is one of my hangups.  Sometimes though it can make a difference, that is why the putt is given.  One guy I play with tries this on.  You know, the casual putt from 20 feet when his partner is on the same line. 

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

Shivas,
I don't understand why you just didn't tell the guy that he was placing the ball on the wrong spot the first time you saw him do it. There is nothing in the rules preventing you from telling an opponent that he is about to break a rule, just as there is nothing saying you must. I always find the former more in the spirit of things than the latter and it saves a lot of aggravation later.
The real wussie is the player who lets someone continue to break the rules and then turns him in at the end of the competition, much like this Bamberger guy.
 

[Peter Galea]

But this is different -- it's not against the rules to mark your ball to the side, so long as you replace it in the same way.  

Are you sure?

Rule 20-1 states: "The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball."

[THuckaby2]

shivas is oh so right, and the Decisions confirm this.  The operative word is indeed "should."  If it said "must" it would be a whole different ball game.



20-1/16  Method Used to Mark Position of Ball
 

Q. The Note to Rule 20-1 provides that “the position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball.” Is a player penalized if he uses an object which is not similar to a ball-marker or small coin to mark the position of his ball?
A. No. The provision in the Note to Rule 20-1 is a recommendation of best practice, but there is no penalty for failing to act in accordance with the Note.
Examples of methods of marking the position of a ball which are not recommended, but are permissible, are as follows:
• placing the toe of a club at the side of, or behind, the ball;
• using a tee;
• using a loose impediment;
• scratching a line, provided the putting green is not tested (Rule 16-1d) and a line for putting is not indicated (Rule 8-2b). As this practice may cause damage to the putting green, it is discouraged.
However, under Rule 20-1 it is necessary to physically mark the position of the ball. Reference to an existing mark on the ground does not constitute marking the position of a ball. For example, it is not permissible to mark the position with reference to a blemish on the putting green. (New)

[ForkaB]

shivsa

I once had a match in an imnpolrtant tournament with someone who did the mark-it-at-the-side/place-it-in-front trick.  Like you, I thought he had made a mistake when he first did it, but 8-9 holes later, it was obvious this was his schtick.  As it was match play, and there was no field to protect, and as I was waxing him, I just let it go, until.......he won a couple of holes in a row to get it back to 2 down, so I resolved to call him on the cheating at the next opportunity.  This came on the next hole where I was lying 4-feet away from a par and he lags a 20-footer approach putt for his par just inside me but slightly off my line.  I'm watching him closely, and I think he knows it, so he just knocks his putt in without marking it.  I tell him to replace his ball as he played out of turn and he goes ballistic, accusing me of being a Rules Nazi.  The long and short of it is that I ended up beating the guy and he refused to shake my hand.  It was satisfying to win, but the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth.

PS--the guy was about 70 year old and a once elite player who was now up to an 8 HCP and climbing.  In my experience, it is the good players who are more likely to cheat than the bad ones, partly because they really know how to carry it off (or think they do)!

[THuckaby2]

Rich brings up a great point.

Does calling rules violations EVER do anything but leave a bad taste in one's mouth?

I've done it exactly twice in my life, and felt like a complete dick both times.  Once I won in match play, once was in stroke play and I was way out of the running but did the "protect the field" thing.  Both times no matter what the outcome I felt like a total loser.

That's what makes this so tough...

And Rich might be right about the good players, but man I know a lot of crappy players who wildly cheat also.  I'd say this:  more KNOWING cheats happen to be better players.

TH

[Jim_Kennedy]

Shivas,
What is quasi-casual tournament play? Is that like an outing, where the last liars win?

If you don't immediately call an opponent on a rules infraction in tournament stroke play, whether or not you had a chance to prevent it, the field suffers and so will you later on.    

p.s. I will bust chops amongst guys I know when they break the rules but I'm really not a stickler (tournaments or three digit sums excluded).  

[THuckaby2]

Jim - I know what shivas means.  There are tournaments (put on by associations, or major clubs, or whatever - you know, your name gets up there in calligraphy) and then there are outings as you say - score is kept, prizes are given, but its run by the participants themselves.

There's no question one needs to call all infractions in the former - protect the field and all of that.  In the latter, one has to be a real rules nazi to start calling violations.

My question is re the formal tournaments... as much as it is the right thing to do, does one ever feel good about it?  It's just so much easier to let things slide... I know that's wrong, I know it's stupid... but man sometimes the wrong and stupid thing leaves one feeling better about one's self.

I'd rather lose and feel good than win and feel bad.

Make any sense?

TH

[TEPaul]

"Yea, I was called once for cheating in a city tournament.  My ball was down the middle, but slightly plugged.  So I lifted the ball without marking to identify it.  A guy called me out right away.  He asked if I marked before lifting.  I was not in the habit of doing this as I don't play loads of comps.  Man, that was embarrasing."

Sean:

What that guy called you for was wrong if he called you for cheating. If he understood the way the Rules are properly looked at in golf he would've simply pointed out that you violated a rule of golf. He has no right, in my opinion, to assume what your intent was when you did that.  

That's part of what is starting to concern me with the reactions to some of these rules threads. Too many seem to think if someone does something wrong in the sense of breaching or violating a rule of golf that it should be assumed they are cheating.

The Rules of Golf and rules officials generally don't look at it that way---they only involve themselves in the "facts" of any rules situations so they can make the proper ruling. They don't get into intent.

[THuckaby2]

TEP:

That is very true.

But Sean's reaction speaks volumes.

You're a rules official so you necessarily see it differently.  You also played in high level events, which it seems to me for the most part don't suffer "cheating."  Your competitors would understand that a rules violation doesn't mean one is a cheater.

But of course out in the rest of the golf world - your experience there must be different, no?

That is, if a rules violation is called damn right the offender thinks he's being called a cheat.  Either that or he thinks it's something that one ought to let slide, as it is so often in "normal" golf... so he thinks you're the dick.

Thoughts on this?

[PThomas]

I'll never understnad these assholes that cheat on purpose...is golf all they have in life?  is their self-esteem that low that they have to win at golf to make themselves feel good?  what pricks..

[THuckaby2]

shivas - understood completely here.

Any take on my touchy-feely California boy questions about feeling like a prick for calling rules violations?

I'm guessing you're above such feelings, but you often surprise me.

 

[JohnV]

But this is different -- it's not against the rules to mark your ball to the side, so long as you replace it in the same way.  

Are you sure?

Rule 20-1 states: "The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball."

Pete, note the word "should", not "must".

[JohnV]

"And how is the Tuftsian treatis of "like situations being treated alike" advanced in that scenario?"

Shivas:

As you say it isn't. But not for the same reason you seem to be suggesting. Tufts does not explain a single thing about the rules of golf or their "principles" in the context of cheating. The man put the game and the Rules of the game on a bit higher plane than that.

Shivas,  

The Rules treat like situations alike.  If the people who enforce the rules don't, then the system can and does break down.  That is why rules officials and players must do what the book says and not make judgement calls when they are not permitted (as in the case of those who think that the LPGA should have waived the DQ and just give Wie two shots).

[THuckaby2]

Tom, I've overtly called a couple dozen rules violations over the years.  I've concurred on dozens more (like where the guy says "guys, I just realized I have 15 clubs" or "did you guys see that -- I think my ball just moved" and I say "yeah, I saw it, that sucks...make sure you replace it so you don't rack up any more penalties...").  

That's a pretty important distinction.  And I feel like a total prick every time I overtly call it.  I've never felt bad concurring.

Understood completely.  Oh hell yes, concurring, you're just doing what you're supposed to do and while it doesn't make one feel warm all over, you don't feel like a prick... It's his call and you really have no part in it other than NOT cheating and allowing the discretion anyway.  Which by the way I did have two guys try to talk me into doing... of course then I became the rules nazi.. only saved by the offender himself who insisted on the penalty.

How does one get over the prick feeling about overt calls, though?  Or is it just part of the game?

TH

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

In post #44 I guess I see where you're going but I'm not sure. The Rules of Golf are written in such a way that it is clear to tell that they (The Rules) expect golfers to do the same thing in the context of playing by the Rules of Golf. If for some reason that doesn't seem to be happening the best the Rules can do about it or say about it is that monitoring that kind of thing is the responsibility of "fellow competitors". All competitors have a responsibility within the rules by what's known as "the fellow competitor" to "protect the field". The reason it's that way as Tufts explained is because there can never be in golf referees to monitor everything golfers do on a golf course. So in a real sense the "fellow competitor" responsibility is to act as a referee in rules situations. Obviously "fellow competitors" do not have the "final authority" for decision making during rules situations and for that reason stroke play golf has Rule 3-3 which is the "Second Ball" rule. If there is not agreement between the player and the "fellow competitor" over some rule situation the player can play a second ball and resolve the matter with the "Committee" later before signing the score-card.

But it seems like a lot of what you were talking about in that post above was to do with cheating. Again, the Rules of Golf do not concern themselves with intent, only if a rule was breached for whatever reason.

As far as the "like situations shall be treated alike" I guess in this context, as Tufts said; "The Penalty for a Rule of golf is not adjusted to fit the attendant circumstances". In the way you're asking about this I suppose the 'attendant circumstances' would be whatever the intent of the player might have been. Again the Rules only look at the actual facts in the context of the Rule not in the context of the player's intent or motivation (which could include purposefully breaching a Rule).

[THuckaby2]

There's only two ways that I know of:

1.  actually BE a prick; and

2.  strike up a discussion going down the first fairway that "you know, Tom, it's so fun to play in tournaments by the strict Rules of Golf for a change...even if they sometimes they come to bite you in the ass.  Isn't it refreshing to have to mind all your P's and Q's all day or else you get whacked?  and if shit happens, you've got nobody to blame but yourself?"  or something to that effect.  That way, people know that you feel like you have to call stuff and if shit happens, they've been warned...

VERY sage counsel.  Many thanks.  I'd like to think I don't have it in me to do #1, but I sure as hell can do #2.

TH

[TEPaul]

"Tom, I've overtly called a couple dozen rules violations over the years.  I've concurred on dozens more (like where the guy says "guys, I just realized I have 15 clubs" or "did you guys see that -- I think my ball just moved" and I say "yeah, I saw it, that sucks...make sure you replace it so you don't rack up any more penalties...").  
That's a pretty important distinction.  And I feel like a total prick every time I overtly call it.  I've never felt bad concurring."

Shivas:

I think you need to start asking yourself what it is that makes you feel like a total prick in the examples you gave above. It's probably because you feel that calling someone on something is the same thing as calling him a cheat, right?

If that's the case then just say; "I'm in no way questioning your intent but do you agree with what I believe I just saw? (ex if you think you saw him move his ball).

If he says yes then you've done your job with your responsibility to the "field" as a "fellow competitor". If the guy denies it then there's a problem---eg you probably are looking at a cheat.

But the Rules of Golf has nothing within them that specifically deals with cheating. If you took that situation to the "Committee" they would listen to the facts of the situation between you and the player and if the weight of evidence is neutral they will rule for him.

But you know what P.J. used to say about what to do in golf with cheats don't you? He'd say; "Apply Rule 35 to them".

[THuckaby2]

TEP:

See also my post #43, address to you, re prickish feelings and why people feel like cheaters.

There is WAY more to this than what's in the rules and decisions books.

That's what shivas is getting at... and strangely enough I understand him perfectly, perhaps better than he understands himself.

 

[Michael Moore]

I believe that Ihave unwittingly spawned a Shivas - Huckaby circle line segment jerk.

[THuckaby2]

Michael - please.  Yes this might have worked out that way, but it kills me.  I disagree with my friend shivas far more than I agree, that's for sure.  But I also can call a spade a spade, and his take on this makes great sense to me.

So what's up with golf in Maine?

TH

[ForkaB]

Tom

I can't talk for Shivas, but let me tell you why I usually feel like a prick when I call somebody on something.

1.  These "somebodies" are very often my friends, and in almost all cases generally nice guys who just do not have a clue about concepts like "protecting the field" and think that "Tufts" is a kind of carpet.
2.  These guys mostly love the game, but don't play competitively that often, and when they do it's very low-key stuff.
3.  I am continually haunted by the memories of an old friend, 25 HCP or so, who showed me proudly his double sided chipping club, which he wielded like a virtuoso and then nearly cried when I told hiim it was probably illegal.

There is a different golfing life out there, Tommy, outside of GAP tournaments and Lesley Nielsen Cups.  For the 99% who are just out there to have fun. do we really have to be such hardasses?

[THuckaby2]

Huck, don't listen to him.  He apparently went to a school named after a company named after a color.    

Good point.

But then again you went to a directional school, and I went to one often mistaken for St. Nick.

 

[THuckaby2]

Tom

I can't talk for Shivas, but let me tell you why I usually feel like a prick when I call somebody on something.

1.  These "somebodies" are very often my friends, and in almost all cases generally nice guys who just do not have a clue about concepts like "protecting the field" and think that "Tufts" is a kind of carpet.
2.  These guys mostly love the game, but don't play competitively that often, and when they do it's very low-key stuff.
3.  I am continually haunted by the memories of an old friend, 25 HCP or so, who showed me proudly his double sided chipping club, which he wielded like a virtuoso and then nearly cried when I told hiim it was probably illegal.

There is a different golfing life out there, Tommy, outside of GAP tournaments and Lesley Nielsen Cups.  For the 99% who are just out there to have fun. do we really have to be such hardasses?

Exceedingly well said, Rich.  So welcome to our line-jerk.  But anway, that too makes sense, and it's the same for me for the most part.  Nothing sucks more than calling a violation on someone with good intentions who just doesn't know what he's doing.  That's why - and TEP forgive me, I know I'm, going to golf hell - my answer in those cases is to look the other way.

Of course when I'm playing with folks like this, it's either in a silly net competition like shivas describes, or some other less formal event.

In a formal event, it's not people I know, there is the "protect the field" thing, thus a differet set of variables.  Compare to the NCGA qualifer you did at LaRinconada.  Wouldn't you still feel a little prickish calling a rules violation there?  Not concurring, as shivas describes, but noticing, demanding penalty for?

In these instances, well I still feel like a prick, or the rules Nazi you were accused of being.  Thankfully it's only happened twice that I can recall.  BUT that likely means I just looked the other way many more times... more golf hell for me, DQ if a third party knew about this.... But going home feeling good rather than feeling prickish.

TH

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