[paul cowley]

 Neil....not to take away anything from the Fazio crowd who did a fine job the new course, but darn I would have loved the challenge of upgrading the old Seaside while  incorporating Marshside along its same lines....something I still do in my mind at times ....but less and less.

[Gene Greco]

Sandbox:

   I used to live in Santa Cruz and played Pebble dozens of times. When the pros say they hit a 3 iron on #7 (107 yards) due to STRONG winds I can attest to that first hand.

I've played Cypress half a dozen times and never encountered THAT wind when I rerached 16 but I'm sure there are days when the option of laying up seems very inviting as there is NO chance of hitting the green even for a "good-sized healthy guy" like me.

[Mike_Golden]

Having now played NGLA (yesterday) I wholeheartedly agree with the esteemed Dr. Vostinak about the Alps-just an incredible golf hole that would be a thrill each and every time.  I can't say the same thing about #15 at Cypress in spite of all the subtleties.  The Alps has at least all of those subtleties as well as requiring two outstanding shots to reach the green.

[David Sneddon]

Even the redan's options don't thrill me as much as Foxy at Dornoch. There are so many ways to try approach and play the hole, both from the tee and the approach. The joy is that none are perfect, and the player must make a great approach.

Fully concur with Foxy.  You never play it the same way twice, even on the same day.  If it isn't the greatest par 4 in the world then surely it is in the top 5.

David

[Sean Leary]

16th at Bandon Dunes

I can't believe no one has responded on this.  This is a love it or hate it hole.  I think it is a lot better now than when it first opened, as they have increased the landing area left....

[THuckaby2]

I would have responded but I thought Michael was kidding.

You might say I've had a love-hate-love relationship with the hole...

First trip, first round, played into an odd wind, not the prevailing summer, and thought it was fabulous... damn the choices are tough ones playing into the wind....

Later that day, and for duration of first trip, regular summer wind returned and I came to hate it - there was no way to have the ball stop on the top shelf and after a few playings that gets really absurd...

This year, played it again twice, came to love it again... expanded top shelf alleviates previous concerns, as you say....

One way or the other though, I can't say it's the best golf hole I've seen.  BUT... it likely does make the top 100 in its current state.  It is a very cool, very dramatic golf hole.

[Sean Leary]

Tom,

I agree completely. When I first played it(right when it opened), it was down wind and that was when the Bandon greens were like absolute concrete.  Nowhere to land it on your first or second shot back then....My favorite hole in the Bandon complex is 6 at Pacific, which is just brilliant, imo.....

[THuckaby2]

Sean you and I definitely of like mind then... methinks my favorite hole there is also #6 PD.  Man that is just brilliance.

[Michael Dugger]

yeah, I was sort of just throwing something out there.

I also like many holes on PD better, but each time I come back around to the 16th at BD I am once again floored.

I can't comment on a number of comments about how the hole played right after the course opened, my first round was in March of 2002.

I think the chasm hazard is the neatest feature on the whole Bandon complex.  I haven't seen the Trails course, however, so take it for what it is, my opinion.

As the course settles into the land, I believe that it will become that much better.

[THuckaby2]

Michael:

Picture the upper fairway much tighter, with pretty heavy rough on the left where there is fairway now... and then the cut part is littered with those pot bunkers, as it is now... Combine that with a downwind and firm conditions, and well, there really was nowhere to get the ball to stop - it either went in a bunker (bad) or through down to the 17th tee or past (bad) or into the heavy rough (bad).  It was just a bit absurd.

Now, with a bit more room up there, an element of skill has been reintroduced to the golf hole, in any wind.

It is a very dramatic hole, and now a great one.  But heck, lots of golf holes settle over time - and you're right, we can expect the courses at Bandon to just get better and better.

BTW, the Trails course is wonderful.  But I'm having a hard time nominating any one hole there for inclusion with the absolute best at the resort.  Any of 14-17 might merit this, though... That's a topic in and of itself.

[TEPaul]

""The 13th at Pine Valley is the hole most people remember: it's considered to be an example of the best golf architecture can offer. Your options are said to be never-ending: playing safe to the right is popular but the John Daly in us will always make us think we can carry the danger and hit the green in two".- Ed Seay(Kingdom-Issue Three)"

Then I guess it's a damn good thing George Crump didn't live longer because if he had he had every intention of making some changes to that hole!  

[TEPaul]

The best par 3 I've ever seen is probably NGLA's #6. It's been talked about on here a lot but basically the interest starts bigtime on the tee and never ends until you hole out but the reason I might say it could be the best is because it's also the type of hole that everybody and anybody has a chance on it.

The best par 4 I've seen is Maidstone's #9 and I thought that about 20 years before I even became interested in golf course architecture.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I've lots left to see but #4 at Fishers Island is one of my personal favorites and so is the 11th? (par3) at Essex CCC in NJ.

[RT]

From the tee through to the last putt on a beautifully diabolical putting surface, the 16th at Deal.  Not bad neighbors either side of it either.

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