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Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:Playing it Safe ...
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2005, 10:23:10 AM »
Adam -

You got that right.

I play with some older gentlemen who are perfectly capable in hitting a 4 iron, but they go to their rescue clubs like Linus needs his blanket.  They hit the front of the green on a par 3 and roll off of the back for the 100th time, and they act as if the golf course screwed them!

JWK

TEPaul

Re:Playing it Safe ...
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2005, 10:27:28 AM »
In my mind whenever a subject like this of over-irrigated vs firm is dicussed on here a distinction should always be made between "through the green" and the green surfaces themselves. If that distinction is not made it seems most think the subject is only about the greens themselves.

The primary concentration of reestablishing firm and fast conditions on golf courses should first be in the "through the green" area, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2005, 10:31:19 AM by TEPaul »

Matt_Ward

Re:Playing it Safe ...
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2005, 04:00:04 PM »
Guys, guys, guys ...

C'mon -- the places I am talking about are taking CONSCIOUS ACTIONS to keep the ground moist 99.99% of the time.

These are the same places with superb pedigrees and first rate designs -- however -- the conditioning is simply thrown out the window with the love affair with constant overwatering.

There is no ground game option.

I don't deny that certain rationalities can be applied but after a while the excuse book runs thin and it becomesd very clear as I said before -- the tree huggers were an easy lot to deal with compared to the make-up artists who see green grass and water as the first among all equals.

Ignorance / stupidity on this subject will not come around fast or even move much at all since so many clubs are enamored with the outcome of "how they look" rather than "how they play."

Brent Hutto

Re:Playing it Safe ...
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2005, 04:08:08 PM »
Matt,

You assume that the "ground game option" is a benefit to be traded off against a less green and less lush look. My point earlier this week is that most good players nowadays (and good players are the squeaking wheels that most often get greased in my experience) consider what you call "ground game option" to be another name for a weak-ass old guy's golf game.

For some influential golfers, any course that lets you bounce or roll an approach is a poor golf course is a poor golf course by definition.

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Playing it Safe ...
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2005, 09:07:33 PM »
   What Brad said is dead on. I would only add that there is much more to it than just turning off the irrigation system. The Club and Members need to accept a complete program of aggressive cultural practices that will promote the deeply rooting grasses. Two, three and four core aerations may be required to open the soil, remove thatch and get conditions ripe for change.
    If you encounter a course that is kept wet with irrigation I'll bet the Super is dealing with a short root system. I'll also bet that the Super is directed to not disturb the course during the season. You can't get it done like this. Over the long haul you will lose ground.
    There was mention about the weather this spring and then the quick transition into summer. This is accurate but now consider the last two seasons in the NE. Generally the last two years were wetter and cooler than normal. The grass grew more than normal and more thatch was created. The soil was wetter and roots got shorter and Poa annua was favored over bentgrass. It probably makes sense that whatever the normal aeration schedule was it should have been increased and additional work performed to offset the additional growth and thatch accumulation. I wonder how many Superintendents were able to do this and how many had their hands tied by golf schedules and the resistance to aeration from Members. Money could have been a factor as well. Extra work may require money not in the original budget plan and with rounds down due to weather already how many places wanted to disrupt play further?
     I am with everone who wants a firm and fast course. I hate "splat golf" but most of us in the NE don't have the soils to overcome what Mother Nature can give us all the time. It take team work and a compehensive plan of atack to set your course up to be kept as dry as possible when you are in controll. Maintenance Standards and Objectives should be in writting. The Superintendent and Green Committee need to adopt this plan and promote it to the general Membership.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Playing it Safe ...
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2005, 11:54:54 PM »
Shivas,

I don't know if we see things exactly the same way, but I do think Brent's comments capture the feeling many people have about "firm and fast".

Here in the States, I've met very few people who enjoy the "ground game".

And "brown"? Forget it. Lush green is far better!

Whistling Straits, by the way, provided some of my most enjoyable moments playing the ball along the ground. On #13, I had about 120 yards to the green. Instead of going with a wedge, I hit seven iron.....maybe fifty yards.......and then got to watch the ball tumble the rest of the way......

.......it seemed to take forever.......leading me to feel I didn't deserve to make the birdie putt because I already had so much fun on the hole!
Tim Weiman

TEPaul

Re:Playing it Safe ...
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2005, 06:22:03 AM »
SBR's analysis is very accurate, in my opinion. Probably the bad news for those courses and clubs that're into an over-irrigated no ground game process and mentality is that to get their courses back to firmer and faster and the reestablishing of the ground game option, is, unfortunately, often not the simplest process once you've been down the wrong road too long. Unfortunately just turning off the water is not the only thing that needs to be done. Grass is a living thing and like all living things it takes time and effort to reacclimate it. As SBR said the key is to get those roots down a whole lot deeper than the roots are on agronomy that's been over-irrigated for years. And sometimes that means real expense remediating soil conditions (compaction, hydrophobia etc) so the roots and water can get deep and perch deep. Basically that's the only way consistently firm and fast conditions can be reestablished.

If your super tells you the only way to establish firm and fast conditions "through the green" is to spend twice as much cutting the fairways twice as much tell him to zip it because I guarantee you he's lying to you through his teeth because he thinks you don't know what's going on here which you probably don't!  ;)

See the thread on "Nature's Way" and the "Pa Am at Huntingdon Valley" for more and complete info on this subject. What HVGC did years ago is the only way any other club can get all the way down this road to consistently firm and fast conditions.

I really do hope that HVGC eventually does get the recognition for starting this on their own so long ago that so many thought was so odd and radical. There was no one out there back then to help them---they developed their processes all by themselves.

As Tom Doak said there's always been courses out there that have always done what HVGC has been doing for the last decade or two but the difference in my opinion, is that HVGC is the first to actually turn things around from an over-irrigated and chemical dependent golf course and go down the right road of an organic and dry culture and process.

If any club out there that's been over-irrigated and chemical dependent for years is interested in consistently firm and fast conditions both "through the green" and on the greens, my suggestion would be to call up Huntingdon Valley G.C., Huntingdon Valley, Pa and ask them how they did it---collaborate with them both in their maintenance practices and how they sold the idea of this type of playablity to their membership.

And furthermore, if any club has some mentality amongst their better players that a soft golf course that requires only aerial shots is the best way for them to strut their talent and that a firm and fast course and a ultra functional ground game is for weak players and hackers, I definitely challenge those good players in those over-irrigated clubs out there to try their talent at HVGC. I'll guarantee them HVGC will whup the asses of those good players from soft over-irrigated courses every single day for a solid month until they finally figure out what good and complete golf is all about---eg firm and fast conditions throughout!  
« Last Edit: July 30, 2005, 06:32:18 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Playing it Safe ...
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2005, 01:29:56 PM »
Guys, guys, guys ...

C'mon -- the places I am talking about are taking CONSCIOUS ACTIONS to keep the ground moist 99.99% of the time.

These are the same places with superb pedigrees and first rate designs -- however -- the conditioning is simply thrown out the window with the love affair with constant overwatering.

There is no ground game option.

I don't deny that certain rationalities can be applied but after a while the excuse book runs thin and it becomesd very clear as I said before -- the tree huggers were an easy lot to deal with compared to the make-up artists who see green grass and water as the first among all equals.

Ignorance / stupidity on this subject will not come around fast or even move much at all since so many clubs are enamored with the outcome of "how they look" rather than "how they play."

I couldn't agree more with you Matt.  Wow.  I can't believe I just wrote that.  No offense, but my opinions seem to usually be the polar opposite of yours.  When I worked in the Met Section two years ago it seemed that every course, barring some like Shinnecock, NGLA and other links style courses, were HEAVILY overwatered.  It became obvious to me that the course looking green was more important than the course playing the way it was intended to.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Matt_Ward

Re:Playing it Safe ...
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2005, 02:01:48 PM »
Jeff:

Glad you we can agree this time.

The Met Section is loaded with courses that are simply overwatered. I have seen a number of layouts where guys are taking racoon pelt size divots. Ditto the moon deep craters they get when hitting greens.

It's about time those who are raters see and RATE the courses for what they are -- rather than what they could become.

I for one will be lowering my overall totals for a number of metro NY/NJ areas courses to reflect the fact that the desire to have it green 24/7 has robbed those respective courses of the very character they were given when originally designed.

For the rest of you guys out there consider this -- the same people who rave about ground game options when they play across the pond are the first ones to flood their own layouts with H20.

The ignorance / stupidity these same people demonstrate concerning their own home courses is truly mind-boggling. The simgular fact is that too many clubs are enamored with green grass at all costs -- and fail to see / understand the strategic implications by what they are doing.

Like I said before -- the tree huggers issue pales when compared to the overdosing of layouts with H20.

Pat Brockwell

Re:Playing it Safe ...
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2005, 02:30:30 PM »
While watching the Open at St. A's my very able Assistant asked why is it that during the Masters people say "Why doesn't our course look like that?" , but during an event at the birthplace of the game no one has that particular comment.  Matt really nailed it quite a while ago with his "How it looks vs, how it plays" theme.  Let's keep the faith and don't stop beating this drum.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Playing it Safe ...
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2005, 02:33:15 PM »
I was thinking along the lines of what you posted, Pat:  if enough people make noise about this asinine practice, maybe our efforts will bear fruit!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

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