Patrick - about adding length to these Edens these days:
Ok, so the Eden was meant to be played testing middle iron skills - so what can you do?

Keep it at 165-175, but, alter the goal the golfer must seek and its relationship to trouble.[/color]

Adding SOME length, I don’t personally find it objectionable but there is a limit!

No way 200 yds, although it may be the nearing the appropriate length (....especially after having played a few days with the “big-bomber” Neil Regan - for him I think Eden for him, 220 would work fine!!)

This is where we disagree.
I think 165-175 is more than adequate.
Having played with Neil, there's no doubt he's long and strong.
But, the problem with Eden's today is twofold.  Green speeds and the failure of the clubs to locate the hole in difficult or highly tactical positions.

On most of the Eden's I've played, the hole is right in the middle of the damned green, offering little in the way of pressure or the demand for a high degree of execution on the approach shot.

And, with holes in the mid-green, a relatively easy two-putt is presented should the approach shot reach the putting surface.

Placing hole locations near or behind the bunkers creates great risk-reward.

Fail to execute and you're faced with a very difficult recovery.

Bail to the safe side and you're faced with a very difficult two-putt.

Slower putting surfaces would allow for hole locations higher up on the putting surface, which would place additional demands on the approach, recovery and putting.

Eden's aren't being used as they were intended.

And, I think the problem is systemic.

Too many golf courses place their hole locations in benign positions that defeat the purpose of the architecture and the challenge of the game.

That's the result of political pressure from factions of the membership who want everything "fairer".  Today, if hole locations are a challenge to the membership, they complain and the superintendent is told to be benign with respect to hole locations.

In earlier times, the response would be that the member should work on their game and rise to the challenge that the architect prepared and intended.

Get those hole locations perilously close to trouble and leave the hole at 165-175 and even the Neil Regan's of the world will have their hands full.[/color]

I think for the average “good” player 175 is fine for an Eden today .... my opinion.

AGREED[/color]

Pat, GCGC’s Eden is superb!

AGREED, but, there too, hole locations need to be more challenging.[/color]

NGLA’s Eden is really puzzling to me in a lot of ways but we’ll (I’ll) figure it out one day.

We've discussed this a number of time and I agree.

I don't like the run up feature offered by NGLA's version or the shallow right side, inteloping bunker, I'd like to see it eliminated and the green mowed to putting surface right up to the deep right side bunker.[/color]

Interesting story:

The esteemed Mr. Ben Crenshaw wrote the intro for my book, for which I will forever be in his debt.  I had been asking him this same question ..... the severity of the back to front on 11-High Hole In. He told me about 2 rounds he played with John Daley at TOC at the Open (two times back)  and how Daley, with those great hands, feathered in two shots in two days, in different winds, the pin tucked in over Strath bunker.

The wind one day quartering from the left, so JD feathers in a soft draw - the next day, wind quartering in from the right, JD slides a nice fade in towards the pin.  Ben, in his ever-so-modest way, said he (Ben) was just trying to get his own ball in the “area” of the pin

Superior talent and superior shot making should be rewarded.
You can't view the Eden in the context of Long John Daly when he's playing his best[/color]

My main question is the front to back slope not being replicated (in my opinion) “properly” - whatever that means and the feeding into Strath as a main feature of the hole.
In many cases green speeds have made the mid to back slope unuseable.   Just Look at NGLA..
I would also imagine that those designing current day Edens would take green speeds into consideration when designing the slopes.[/color]

If I am ever fortunate enough to get the opportunity to build an Eden ..... boy, watch out - hah.