What's New in the Mountain Time Zone ?

« **Reply #25 on:** June 17, 2005, 01:08:24 PM »

Brad:

I met with Doug when in Denver and he mentioned your on-site visit. Highland Meadows is a fine addition to the public golf scene in Colorado -- as you mentioned -- I would be very interested in seeing what future work Art does. I was told by the head pro that a future development is going to take place nearer to the mountains close by to a lake that is roughly 20 minutes west of where Highland Meadows is located.

Highland Meadows and Vista Ridge present a unique discussion point. I don't have time at this moment to discuss the work of Moorish there but the totality of what both courses provide is rather exciting and certainly a plsu to those who live in the immediate region.

« **Reply #26 on:** June 17, 2005, 04:31:04 PM »

One of the more unique courses that have opened recently is the design by Jay Moorish at Vista Ridge in Erie -- about 20 miles north of Denver.

Vista Ridge is a mega housing complex and is managed by Troon Golf. The course has also been extended recently so that maximum length is now at 7,676 yards / par-72. The CR from the tips is 75.0 with a 140 slope.

Vista Ridge is rather unique in that the two nine hole sequences come from a long circle for each side. You never see any of the holes connected close to each other save for the 1st / 18th and the 9th / 10th.

Moorish is another talented architect who is often downplayed by many here on GCA. Often, people simply think of his long time partnership with Tom Weiskopf and the successes they achieved -- Forrest Highlands (Canyon) and Double Eagle, are just two of their better results. I also liked what they both did in one of their earliest works Grandote in LaVeta, CO -- it's a layout that has also started to rebound from a near ruinous situation.

Vista Ridge is far better than another solo Moorish course that seems to get plenty of ink -- Stone Canyon just outside Tucson. At Vista Ridge -- Moorish has abandoned the silly fairway cutoff holes that only serve to cheapen the quality of the land he had to work with there.

I did not play Vista Ridge prior to the insertion of the new back tees. Clearly, the facility added the length in order to handle outside tournaments in the Colorado area. And, given the elevation, it's entirely appropriate for those seeking to be tested to the max.

At Vista Ridge you have some unique terrain and the ability to consistently drive the ball in the right spots is always a must. Unlike Highland Meadows -- the onus on the player to drive the ball with sufficient distance and direction is a clear necessity.

You can see that immediately with the 1st hole. Here you tee slightly above the fairway on this gentle dog-leg left hole. There is a bunker complex to the right center for those who opt too far away from the high rough like grass that cuts in down the left side. The shot calls for a draw and if you pull it off you will be amply rewarded. The green is also set on a slight angle to encourage a correct approach.

The trick in understanding Vista Ridge is that after the 1st hole the game is one. You then play a downhill turning left par-5 of 626 yards -- followed by a slightly uphill long par-4 of 468 yards. The only respite that follows comes with the 419-yard -ar-4 4th. To Moorish's credit, he follows what Jim Engh did so successfully at Pradera -- he's included uphill holes that are now severe in their overall slope but they nonetheless do go uphill and require sufficient skill in handling the challenge.

A couple of good examples include the delicious 496-yard 6th hole, the 426-yard 10th, the 487 yard 11th and the 564-yard 12th. If you can't hit the driver consistently at Vista Ridge you will find in short order what's missing in your game.

The weak aspect of the layout -- all of the par-3's are fairly pedestrian -- they are functional but hardly memorable in any measurable way IMHO.

How good overall is Vista Ridge? I'd say it's one of the better Colorado courses I've played. I would not include it along the likes of Norman's Red Sky Ranch or Lakota Canyon Ranch or even when Antler Creek finishes the work it needs to do on its putting surfaces. However, Vista Ridge would clearly be among the top ten public courses I have played in the state.

There's enough variety and one cannot hold against the facility the range of housing options thst engulf a number of the holes.

You need to consistently play a high caliber level of golf. The green complexes are good in spots but the overall detailing you will find at Highland Meadows is clearly lacking in a number of holes at Vista Ridge.

« **Reply #27 on:** June 19, 2005, 02:35:47 PM »

One of the things that is happening within Colorado given its success in the development of many type of golf facilities is the idea that "golf development" can happen just about anywhere no matter the location of the town.

This is what is taking place now in the community of Florence -- about 25 miles west of Pueblo. Here you have a developer (with New Jersey ties) who is attempting to create a "signature Gary Player" design with the hope that such a course will move real estate.

Not only is the place remotely located but the golf design appears to follow the "mailed in" route. Player is listed as the architect in tandem with Warren Henderson and frankly given the skills these two achieved with The Ace Club (just outside of Philadelphia) it's hard to conceive of a more boring and shameful result.

As many know Henderson played a leading role in the creation of Arcadia Bluffs -- the superb layout that lies immediately next to Lake Michigan.

Sadly, the course here simply follows two predictable loops with the hope that future housing will follow.

Colorado has a solid array of golf options but clearly the key is in sustaining the type of designs that will further the existing momentum. Anyone treking to Somo Golf Village should understand that what you find there is not remotely related to what is taking place in so many corners of the state.

the sumo golf village
florence, co
player & warren henderson

« **Reply #28 on:** June 19, 2005, 08:57:52 PM »

Matt

Any news on the Colorado Golf Club(C&C) project in Parker area?

Steve

« **Reply #29 on:** June 20, 2005, 10:45:29 AM »

Steve:

From what was told to me the project is already underway in terms of moving earth and the like.

I wish I had the time to stop by when out there to see what else is happening.

One other course of note -- Flying Horse Ranch just outside Colorado Springs and the design of Tom Weiskopf. The course is supposed to open later this year and from the tour I had with the head pro Glenn Wallace it does look quite good.

« **Reply #30 on:** June 20, 2005, 02:17:34 PM »

Matt & others who may be interested

Take a look:

www.flyinghorsecolorado.com

« **Reply #31 on:** June 20, 2005, 07:23:46 PM »

I'd be curious -- does anyone know the time table for the opening of the Doak course in the northeast section of Colorado?

Steve, et al:

I was told by a few sources that plans are being formulated for major development in and around the Moab area in UT. The surrounding land has a number of unique and clearly beautiful aspects to it but I have to wonder if a daily fee layout can make it being away from even a minor metro area (Grand Junction is the closet).

Still, the land possibilities are exciting depending upon the pockets of the owner and who ultimately is called in to do the design.

One other note -- during my visit to Denver I was told by GCA regular Doug Wright that the early Weiskopf / Moorish layout called Grandote in LaVeta has come back in really good fashion. Hopefully, Doug can speak about this in greater detail.

I've been to the site twice. The first time I really enjoyed the course but the second time was a disaster as fairways were overgrown and many of the greens required shoulder-turns to get the ball to the hole.

« **Reply #32 on:** June 21, 2005, 03:21:10 PM »

As an FYI -- the new design by Steve Nicklaus in Montrose called The Bridges at Black Canyon in Montrose will open sometime in late July.

The course is trying to open up the private sector in an area where only public facilities have thrived to date. Be interesting to see how the club fares.

When you are 65 miles south of Grand Junction and 65 miles north of Telluride you are clearly trying to lure people to a location that is slightly off the beaten track.

The par-71 layout will be 7,100 yards in length with water in play for 14 of the 18 holes.

« **Reply #33 on:** June 21, 2005, 03:42:26 PM »

Quote from: Matt_Ward on June 20, 2005, 07:23:46 PM

One other note -- during my visit to Denver I was told by GCA regular Doug Wright that the early Weiskopf / Moorish layout called Grandote in LaVeta has come back in really good fashion. Hopefully, Doug can speak about this in greater detail.

Matt,

Since you asked about Grandote Peaks here's the scoop. This Weiskopf/Morrish design is a true hidden gem of a public course in many ways. First, it's in the middle of nowhere in tiny La Veta, Co. You can stop by if you're headed from or to Santa Fe-Denver on I-25 or going to The Great Sand Dunes; otherwise you'd never venture there unless you are Matt Ward...

or your father in law lives in the area (my case). Second, it's as low budget as you can get, with a failed housing development and a spruced up trailer as a clubhouse. Third, of course it's very reasonably priced.

Fourth, and most important, the golf course shines through. A terrific routing that uses a basically flat property and one hilly corner to great effect. A stream that flows out of the beautiful Spanish Peaks through the property comes into play on several holes--it's simply masterfully done by the architects. There are a great mixture of holes, including the driveable par 4 4th with a devilishly bunkered green that is a "2 or 6" hole for sure. Another feature is bookend long par 4s--the 5th and 17th--that are nearly identical but play in opposite directions, so that if one hole plays downwind as is often the case on this windy prairie the other surely will play upwind. The only weak hole is the closing 18th, a lame par 5 of little note.

The course opened to strong reviews about 10 years ago, but nearly disappeared after the owner's bankruptcy in the late 1990s followed by a horrible drought in 2001-2003 and no available water that reduced the new owners to trucking in water to save the greens. The fairways during that time were basically dirt--talk about firm and fast! The course made Apache Stonghold's conditions seem like Augusta by comparison. Fortunately, moisture returned the past couple of years, and when I visited in May the course was all the way back to where it was at its infancy. Like Wild Horse, I could play this course all the time and enjoy it.

« **Reply #34 on:** June 22, 2005, 11:12:05 AM »

Doug:

To amplify what you mentioned -- Grandote was at one time, if memory serves, rated among the top five in Colorado by Golf Digest.

The course was a real treat when I first played it and seeing the botton fall out when I returned a few years back was quite distressing.

I'm glad to see it has returned in fine form.

No doubt -- people treking through I-25 south to New Mexico or north to Colorado should stop by LaVeta and play the course. The nearby Spanish peaks make for some wonderful views and the flower of what Weiskopf / Moorish were able to design in future projects can be seen in its infancy at Grandote.

« **Reply #35 on:** June 22, 2005, 03:21:32 PM »

Matt:

We are building Ballyneal about as fast as one can. There are seven holes grassed as of this week and our target to finish is September 1st, which should put them on track for an opening next summer.

« **Reply #36 on:** June 22, 2005, 04:34:37 PM »

Just a note that possibly Mike Nuzzo and / or Baxter Spann can answer -- I was told by a few sources that a layout is being prepared for the Trinidad area (far south off I-25). The name of the course / facility will be Stone Ridge GC. I wonder if they or anyone else who is familiar can comment on what's happening there?

Ditto the work I hear that Robert Trent Jones, Jr. is doing for a new complex in Gypsum called Brightwater. Plans, from what I was told, are to open that sometime in '06.

One last thing -- I also understand that Scott Miller is working on a design called Stillwater in Silt -- just south of the Glenwood Springs area.

« **Reply #37 on:** June 23, 2005, 11:36:38 AM »

Bill:

You need to amend your comment that golf in the mountain time zone "it really isn't golf."

That's an outright ignorant statement coming from such a learned person like yourself.

A number of varied and creative designs have come onto the scene since your departure from the area many moons ago.

The thing about GCA is that too often people tag a particular location from years gone by and fail to keep up with the latest efforts which run counter to there set opinions on what is happening there NOW.

P.S. Bill -- the design of par-5's in the area has been done quite well by designer Jim Engh and a few others -- Rick Phelps is another that comes to mind. The idea that a par-5 hole in the mountain time zone area is really nothing more than "golf lite" is not true at all.

« **Reply #38 on:** June 24, 2005, 02:41:59 PM »

Someone asked me what are the best affordable options in the immediate Denver area and I opined that anyone visiting should check out the number of fine public courses operated by the community of Aurora.

If memory serves, this community has no less than six (6) courses with the two best being Murphy's Creek and Saddle Rock.

Best of all -- if you happen to land at DIA -- the courses are no more than 20 minutes from the airport.

Bill:

I don't doubt what you say that much of mountain golf from years past is fairly benign and golf lite. The new wave of courses has done much to change that landscape IMHO while still providing affordable golf for most people.

« **Reply #39 on:** June 24, 2005, 04:48:07 PM »

Matt

Bear Dance was mentioned by Doug Wright. What's your take on this course?

Steve

« **Reply #40 on:** June 24, 2005, 05:51:03 PM »

I've been playing The Snowmass Club is Snowmass, Colo everyday this week. The Snowmass club was redone by Jim Engh and opened last year.

Bill: Matt is correct. This is an excellent golf course in all respects. You need every club in your bag, plus excellent skills around and on the greens.

« **Reply #41 on:** June 24, 2005, 08:02:40 PM »

Steve:

I see Bear Dance among the top five public courses I have played within Colorado.

Originally, the design was by Rick Phelps but it was modified by a trio of golf professionals who took the lead in getting the operation going.

Bear Dance has some of the most demanding greens you can play in the state period. They have since been modified to some degree but they are not going to embrace anyone with Roberto "Hands of Stone" Duran touch.

The course is on a softer version of the same property fall-off as Santuary but I have to EMPHASIZE -- it's mush softer and the manner by which the holes fit those spaces is neatly done without being overly cramp and penal as Sanctuary demonstrates on more than a few holes.

A couple of the holes are somewhat "over-the-top" at Bear Dance -- especially the short par-4 6th which features a plethora of bunkers short of the green and in the form of a bear's paw. Clearly, it's a marketing ploy and it does take away what the hole could have offered without the bells'n whistles approach.

Nonetheless, the bulk of what you play at Bear Dance is about fine shotmaking and the wherewithal to work-the-ball off the tee. The course tops out past 7,600 yards with a 74.0 CR and 141 slope.

Bear Dance gets little attention from such magazines as Digest and GolfWeek but from the varied places I have played in Colorado -- only the very best public such as Lakota Canyon Ranch and the Norman Red Sky layout have equal or better possibilities.

Steve -- the best thing about Bear Dance is that being located in Larkspur -- you are only an hour south of downtown Denver. The entrance road to the facility is the neat thing to find when going.

« **Reply #42 on:** June 25, 2005, 11:31:07 PM »

Once again my East Coast buddy, Matt, has failed to recognize Arizona as being within the Mountain Time Zone...you do all realize, don't you, that Arizona is ALWAYS in MOUNTAIN STANDARD TIME...we never change, not even when the Federal Gov't asks nicely.

The Wigwam Gold is being brought back to life — and given some new. The Wigwam Blue is undergoing a transformation. The c. 1928 Billy Bell, Sr. Arizona Biltmore Adobe re-opened at the beginning of this year after bunker and hazard restoration — and adjustments to return the course to its Golden Age heritage. Las Palomas in Puerto Peñasco, MX opens in Oct./Nov.....yes, it, too, is in the MOUNTAIN time zone.

« **Reply #43 on:** June 26, 2005, 03:35:25 PM »

Forrest:

Thanks for weighing in but sorry partner -- I have always appreciated Arizona golf -- the public and private and anything in between. I also know the time zone the state is in even if the politicians can't straighten it out themselves.

I did mention previously my time at Pine Canyon in the Flagstaff area and a host of others that have opened recently -- The Refuge at Lake Havasu and El Rio Laughling Ranch near the border of AZ / NV in Laughling but on the AZ side of things. I also weighed in with the new Verrado course just west of Phoenix and I have always mentioned the tremendous work Jack Nicklaus did with the final course at Desert Mountain -- Outlaw.

« **Reply #44 on:** June 26, 2005, 03:43:36 PM »

Thanks for setting the record straight...yes, you mentioned these courses in separate threads — Arizonans appreciate your tenacity in visiting, even in the harsh depth of late spring and summer.

And — for the record — Arizona politicians are doign just fine...those who are not in Jail.

« **Reply #45 on:** June 26, 2005, 03:50:11 PM »

Forrest:

The AZ politicians are students compared to the real crook types that exist in NJ and NY.

P.S. Forrest -- given your knowledge of the AZ area -- how much and how fast do you see the growth of golf and population areas west of Phoenix in areas like Buckeye. Things seem to just keep on going and going.

« **Reply #46 on:** June 26, 2005, 04:01:30 PM »

There are more than 20 projects in planning or development west of Phoenix, but still within Maricopa County — the Nation's largest county.

Not many people realize that Phoenix is now the 5th largest metropolitan area in the U.S. based on population — 3.5 million and growing by several hundred per day. (I am not proud of this...one of my favorite bumper stickers is "WELCOME TO ARIZONA. NOW GO HOME.")

« **Reply #47 on:** June 28, 2005, 11:29:39 AM »

Two additional clubs join the scene in Wyoming this year -- 3 Creek Ranch by Rees Jones just south of Jackson and the Tom Weiskopf design Yellowstone GC on the border of MT and Wyoming.

Both are extremely private -- word is Tiger Woods purchased a membership in order to be away from prying eyes.

I'd be interested in the comments of those who may play either of them. Frankly, the press that Jackson Hole and Teton Pines have received over the years has been a good deal overrated -- credit the Teton Mountains have a huge boost in their overall standing.

« **Reply #48 on:** July 05, 2005, 09:23:13 AM »

Matt

I just came across this new course in Utah designed by Matt Dye, nephew of Pete Dye:

Set to open in mid- to late July, Sleepy Ridge is set on 120 acres that weave their way through wetlands near the shore of Utah Lake between 1000 South and 500 South in Orem — north of Powell Slough and a few miles straight south of the former Geneva Steel plant.

Here is the link to the story:

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600145127,00.html

And here are some photos:

http://www.sleepyridgegolf.com/gcphotos.html

Also, as long as Forrest mentioned his projects in AZ, there will be 2 new courses opening this fall/winter- Engh's private Blackstone GC at Vistancia and Schmidt/Curley's Sun City Festival, both in the West Valley of PHX.

Steve

« **Reply #49 on:** July 05, 2005, 09:32:36 AM »

Steve:

Thanks for the link -- too bad you likely won't have the time to travel to the Park City area because golf is now going full bore in the area -- re: Glenwild, to name just one layout of distinction.

Gents:

I also understand that Tom Doak is moving ahead with a new design in the Big Sky County.

News:

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