Mr Hamm:  My comments were specifically directed as to the potentially, and logically public policy conclusion if this were to be introduced into the federal courts.  I have offered no comments as to efficacy or the value of ADA.

Now that this has turned into a political situation, as I learned with the Yale golf course posting some months ago, I will offer no more commentary on said situation.  However, I will not remove the posts (unlike the Yale posts) because what I have written is basically an explanation of ADA from a public policy position, not a political position.

The man qualifies under the "disabled category", his driver's license allows him parking priveleges in Manhattan. For God's sake what does it take to allow him to ride a cart at Bethpage?

I do wish that every person who contibutes to this forum, would put on leg braces and heavy boots and try to get around as the rest of us do. There would be no opposition to accomodation at State owned parks.

Beyond the image of golf reasons, I think it's the right thing to do.

Damn right, Bill, it's the right thing to do! It's a public facility paid for by public funds. Give the guy a cart and a caddie and help him in any way possible to get around the course. And those of you who don't want him to have a cart should be ashamed of yourself.

Chechessee Creek and Secession in SC are walking only.

Isn't that part of the mystique to The Black though...no matter who you are you have to play by the rules that are there-you have to wait in line/overnight to get a tee time, you have to walk, it's the same for everybody. I just think that they would be opening up the floodgates if they did so.

Secession allows carts on an extremely limited basis.

As much as it makes absolutely no sense to not allow a disabled policeman a cart on the Black the cost of such allowance, as Phil says, might boggle the mind.

Since there are no cartpaths now and some areas that would be quite dangerous to ride in without them it's possible that the addition of such would significantly change the nature of the golf course.

I don't have an answer for this except maybe the use of something other than a standard golf cart for this very limited exception.

Mike,

You wrote, "I don't have an answer for this except maybe the use of something other than a standard golf cart for this very limited exception."

This is not the case of a, "very limited exception." This is not an accomodation for an individual but a demand that accomodations for ALL disabled be created using ADA as the force behind it.

In this case he has already lost the ability for the Park to help out a "Friend of Bethpage" quietly and behind the scenes. He has also prevented them from doing this behind the scenes for anyone else for at least the immediate future.

His exercising of his "legal recourse" has actually limited his options and those of other disabled golfers who want to play at Bethpage.

RJ,

Are you saying that you advocate permiting a handicaped individual to be exposed to dangerous conditions ?

Is there a point where the inherent danger of the property and the activity outweigh the right of access ?

pat...I am not going to get into refuting every one of your points.  You are incorrect, however, as to the courts not having ruled as to golf being an athletic  endeavor and does ADA apply - see Casey Martin vs PGA.  The courts have been very clear in that case that indeed it did apply.  They have also ruled that the basic playing field being chanaged is not a reasonable accomodation.  Hence if one cannot run and wants to play major league baseball they are not entitled to start half way up to first base.  So many of your arguements were the fears expressed during the Martin case and professional golf has not seen the sky falling.  So much of what you say does apply to all movement in civil rights where many said but if we open up that door what's next?   ADA is a civil rights law and one should not have to negotiate privately for basic rights.

For those truely interested in this issue one helpful website is that of the National Golf Course Owners Association - www.ngcoa.org and there is a link to ADA.  Below i have pasted in their words a model policy for golf carts:


Your patronage at [name of course] is truly appreciated.

It is course policy to restrict motorized cart traffic to the cart paths when weather or turf conditions warrant. This policy ensures that we can continue to provide the best possible playing conditions in the long term.

However, we also recognize the needs of the truly disabled golfer who suffers from permanent walking impairments or other conditions that would make it impossible for him or her to enjoy the golf course with restrictions on golf car use.

Golfers with disabilities will be asked to identify themselves to management. It is legally permissible for management, if there is a reasonable belief that a golfer may not be disabled as defined by the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA)*, to request proof of a disability, such as a government-issued permanent disabled car placard or other identifying information which may reasonably be accepted as valid.

Management will provide golfers covered by the ADA with a separate car with an identifying flag. This will allow the disabled golfer only to leave and return to the cart path at designated points on each hole. Please address any questions or concerns to the golf course management.

Please understand that this golf car traffic is likely to adversely affect turf and soil, as well as playability. We appreciate your cooperation in using care and exercising good judgement.

Any use of cars off the cart path is at your own risk, and any problems or injuries resulting from such use are the golfer’s responsibility. For safety reasons we strongly discourage the use of the golf car on severe slopes or through tall grass areas. Natural, unmowed areas may be designated as environmentally sensitive and also present a fire hazard; please avoid these areas with the car.

Consistent with government rulings on the ADA, course management reserves the right to restrict all golf car traffic in rare instances when excessive heat, moisture stress, new turf, other weather-related or maintenance-related conditions create extreme safety issues or would result in any cart traffic causing excessive turf damage. If at any time it is apparent these conditions might exist, we suggest calling ahead.

Violation of this policy may result in suspension of golf privileges.

We encourage your suggestions and ask for your cooperation in providing accessibility and making [course name] a quality golf experience. If you have any questions, please contact the golf course superintendent at [phone number].

* Under the ADA, an individual is considered to have a "disability" if he or she has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities, such as seeing, hearing, speaking, walking, breathing, performing manual tasks, learning, caring for oneself, and working. An individual with epilepsy, paralysis, a substantial hearing or visual impairment is covered, but an individual with a minor, nonchronic condition of short duration, such as a sprain, broken limb, or the flu, generally would not be covered. Source: U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, U.S. Department of Justice Civil Rights Division “Americans with Disabilities Act Questions and Answers”

CKS 10/00

* Please note: For more information and or request for originals please contact Cynthia Smith at (785)865-1431 or by e-mail at Smithpract@aol.com

Does anyone really believe that the purpose of ADA was make sure disabled golfers could drive carts on a golf course??? If friviolous requests of this nature are taken seriously and acted upon with any aggression golf courses as we know them will be ADA'd out of existence.

Either give anyone who wants a cart a cart or deny carts to everyone! Of course lhe latter will continue to maintain the integrity of the course.