Hidden Creek -- Top 100 Modern

« **Reply #25 on:** May 19, 2005, 12:39:22 PM »

Matt
I think Mike C is pretty close, as much as I liked the course. It reminds me of Yeamans Hall, which is characterized by Doak as "one of the neatest places I've ever visited", but he also says that some of the holes "are not especially memorable". Maybe that would change if I played Hidden Creek more times.
Willie

« **Reply #26 on:** May 19, 2005, 12:39:52 PM »

JES:

Nope. His chiding was all about the course. Had he chided about the event, I would have just agreed with him. Hell yes, from all I've read and heard it was the event of all events, not to be missed - due to the speakers and the large gathering.

But the course... well... that alone would not have made one cross the country.

Which is obviously no knock on Hidden Creek... there can only be so many of those.

TH

« **Reply #27 on:** May 19, 2005, 12:42:54 PM »

Tom,

You're correct in assuming the event was a 10.

There does seem to be some pretty wide variances in people's opinions of Hidden Creek.

For instance, I know that Brad Klein published his GolfWeek rating of 8.5, which basically puts it in the Top 25 or so Modern courses in the country. Ran Morrissett is also extremely high on it.

I also know others on here who've shared with me personally that the course was about a 6 or so. I also mentioned a prominent member of this group who came back from an initial visit and told me "no way" is it a top 100 course, so I guess you can assume that similar to Rustic Canyon, opinions run the gamut.

« **Reply #28 on:** May 19, 2005, 12:44:55 PM »

Mike:

Muchas gracias.

Interesting question though... do opinions really differ about HC as much as they do about Rustic (the flashpoint course of all courses)?

In any case, this is all in good fun for me. Good lord do I wish my reality allowed for attending events like this one. One can only do so much... dammit.

« **Reply #29 on:** May 19, 2005, 12:49:03 PM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on May 19, 2005, 12:44:55 PM

Mike:

Muchas gracias.

Interesting question though... do opinions really differ about HC as much as they do about Rustic (the flashpoint course of all courses)?

If people were completely frank here, yes.

« **Reply #30 on:** May 19, 2005, 12:56:42 PM »

Quote from: Mike_Cirba on May 19, 2005, 11:07:37 AM

Ganton – 8
Moortown – 6
Woodhall Spa – 8
Royal West Norfolk – 7
The Addington – 7
Berkshire Blue – 6
Berkshire Red – 6
Royal Ashdown Forest – 7
Sunningdale Old – 8
Sunningdale New – 7
St. George’s Hill – 8
Swinley Forest – 8
Walton Heath Old – 8
Walton Heath New – 7

Can someone comment on the topography of these courses? I was under the impression from previous discussions and photos posted that at least Sunningdale and Walton Heath were "flat" in the same manner as HC - i.e. crumpled land, but no large elevation changes.

« **Reply #31 on:** May 19, 2005, 12:58:26 PM »

My first impression of HC was from a round just before it officially opened. My belief was that without scary hazards ala GCGC, Ganton or Woodhall Spa (to use examples of courses I am familiar with that are heathland or over flatish ground) then HC couldn't be a great or top 100 course.

I've now played four rounds over the course and my opinion of it gets better each time I've played. Perhaps we can exclude the round I played where Pat Mucci and Ran Morrissett were bickering over each shot and their grudge match or whether Ran would get a shot a hole or only 10 or 12 shots from Pat

.

I would certainly drive over 100 miles from my home to play HC several times per year should a National membership fit my budgets. Thus to me it is at least a Doak 7. I think it has just as many virtues as Rustic Canyon. When I look at the GW top 100 list I can see several courses ranked above it that I would switch the order. Thus, I think it might be a but under rated. Regardless, it is a wonderful course that I hope to see again.

Edit- I now see George's post - I would still place courses like Ganton, Woodhall Spa and GCGC above HC from its architecture but that takes nothing away from the enjoyment and virtues of it.

« **Reply #32 on:** May 19, 2005, 01:05:17 PM »

GC:

Ah yes, great stuff. Of course for some people you just damned the place with faint praise when you said:

"I think it has just as many virtues as Rustic Canyon."

But here's the $128K question: if you lived in CA, would you fly 3000 miles just to play Hidden Creek?

TH

« **Reply #33 on:** May 19, 2005, 01:07:41 PM »

Thanks Geoffrey...that's the type of intellectual honesty I expect from you.

I forget...what number would you give Galloway?

By the way, Geoff wasn't the person I referred to earlier who told me "no way".

« **Reply #34 on:** May 19, 2005, 01:37:43 PM »

What amazes me about the discussion on Hidden Creek is its rapid ascension comes from outsiders who rarely have played a good sampling of some of the better other courses that dot the landscape here in New Jersey.

Have people forgotten the likes of Montclair (#2 & #4 nines) by Ross & Banks? Have these same people failed to see what the tandem of Hanse / Bahto have done to such a gem like Essex County CC? Have these same folks simply skipped past Exit 8A on the NJ Tpke regarding the uniqueness of Forsgate / Banks and its superb four par-3's, to name just one aspect. Let me also mention the qualities of Galloway National -- one of the finest TF courses one can play IMHO and you have the excellent restoration work Tom Doak carried forward at ACCC. What about the jewel by the Shore -- Hollywood in Deal? The same can be said for the qualities of Baltusrol / Upper which is rarely mentioned because of the amount of publciity generated by its big brother Lower Course.

As a state resident and someone very familiar with the totality of golf in the state it astounds me that a good course -- which is what Hidden Creek certainly is -- is immediately placed in the rarified air of being a stellar design and included among the 100 best overall courses as Golf Magazine stipulates.

Let me just say this -- if Hidden Creek is a bonafide member of a top 100 grouping then several other Jersey clubs need to be included as well from a national perspective because I don't see the C&C course being ahead of a few of the ones I just mentioned.

« **Reply #35 on:** May 19, 2005, 01:37:50 PM »

Tom

I would have flown 3000 miles to interact with Bill Coore and Roger Hanson and to be a part of the morning program. As I said before, it set the bar very high.

With Ran's Rustic Canyon outing I did fly 3000 miles but I also had 3 additional venues in the area to play. It was one of my more memorable trips. I took Tommy N and Geoff Shack out to Split Rock (the local Bronx muni) on Sunday AM. You could have joined us and had a great time- well worth 3000 miles

Mike

I think very highly of Galloway and its individual golf holes which are outstanding. I think I would concur with Jason's match play of the individual holes in general although I have not really thought about his individual choices too much. I'd still probably choose to play HC 5X out of 10 rounds because as an entire entity it works so well.

« **Reply #36 on:** May 19, 2005, 01:43:51 PM »

GC:

That's all great stuff, and all agreed on, but that was not the question. Obviously the event was fantastic. And of course any golf with you is worth flying for, my friend. Oh how I wish the world was perfect such that I could fly to any and all events I wanted to attend....

BUT... the question is about the course alone, absent all of that, and absent any rounds to be added.

Would you fly accross the country just to play Hidden Creek?

If it helps, you can answer the same question for Rustic Canyon, or put it in the context of any other course you like.

Seems like a simple no to me, for both of them. Of course that's no knock on either.

I just do want to try to gain some clarity about this course, given it is so widely discussed.

TH

« **Reply #37 on:** May 19, 2005, 01:51:13 PM »

Huck:

To answer your question -- drive 100 miles or thereabouts -- the answer is yes.

Fly across the country to play one round there -- no. Fly across country to play Merion / East -- definitely.

Just one man's opinion.

P.S. Regarding Rustic Canyon -- I would certainly drive 100 plus miles to play it. Would I fly from Jersey to play it knowing what I know about the course now? The answer is no and I mean that with no disrespect because I do like the layout. Public courses I would fly a good portion of the country across would include Pacific Dunes and Black Mesa, to name just two.

« **Reply #38 on:** May 19, 2005, 01:56:09 PM »

Matt:

Understood completely - thanks. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. Fits in right with the Doak definitions also.

TH

« **Reply #39 on:** May 19, 2005, 01:57:04 PM »

Tom

I thought my answer above was sufficient. No- for a round at HC ALONE I would not fly 3000 miles. Add Split Rock with Tommy and Geoff - well you can answer that for yourself

I would fly in for

Cypress Point
Pine Valley
Sand Hills
NGLA
Shinnecock Hills
Both or all three now at Bandon (does that count?)
Fishers Island
Friars Head
Merion (although I wouldn't know this for a fact yet

)
Oakmont (although I wouldn't know this for a fact yet either

)

edit
Prairie Dunes, Crystal Downs and Kingsley Club too!

« **Reply #40 on:** May 19, 2005, 02:05:06 PM »

GC - as was my answer sufficient re a round with you at Split Rock. But my apologies, I didn't think you had answered re HC alone. Everyone seems to keep relating it to the event, which I see as a GIVEN - remember I said that was a 10 in Doakspeak. I'm asking about the course.

Re the rest of the list, right on brother.

My only point in this was vindication re past crap thrown at me. None of you would fly across the country just for HC either. And that was the crap that was given.

« **Reply #41 on:** May 19, 2005, 02:05:31 PM »

So much of the "fly across the country" thing depends on one's circumstances. If I were still single, working in NYC and making more $$$, I would have been at Barnbougle's opening day, and that is on the other side of the world. Heck, I'd fly across the country to play Sheep Ranch tomorrow if I could.

But instead, I'm married to a wonderful woman, have the world's best baby

, and am toiling away printing t shirts for peanuts. I can't fly across the country to play Cypress Point anytime soon.

Matt -

Sounds like NJ has an embarassment of riches. I'd hate to see HC penalized due to its neighbors, regardless of how good they are. I'd play it over either of my New Mexico whipping boys any and every day of the week. And I'd play my NM whipping boys over Wolf Creek and and every day of the week, too. That doesn't make any of them bad courses, it just shows where my personal preferences lie.

« **Reply #42 on:** May 19, 2005, 02:17:45 PM »

Quote from: George Pazin on May 19, 2005, 02:05:31 PM

So much of the "fly across the country" thing depends on one's circumstances. If I were still single, working in NYC and making more $$$, I would have been at Barnbougle's opening day, and that is on the other side of the world. Heck, I'd fly across the country to play Sheep Ranch tomorrow if I could.

But instead, I'm married to a wonderful woman, have the world's best baby , and am toiling away printing t shirts for peanuts. I can't fly across the country to play Cypress Point anytime soon.

George:

You too miss the point. We're to assume that none of that matters - in fact none of one's personal realities matter either - including any other trips already planned, that have cost one more capital both financial and marital than one has ever been able to afford.

Or at least that was the assumption by my accuser.

TH

ps - I'll be playing Sheep Ranch 3 weeks from today, assuming the course is playable.

« **Reply #43 on:** May 19, 2005, 02:39:20 PM »

Quote from: Matt_Ward on May 19, 2005, 01:51:13 PM

Huck:

To answer your question -- drive 100 miles or thereabouts -- the answer is yes.

Fly across the country to play one round there -- no. Fly across country to play Merion / East -- definitely.

Just one man's opinion.

P.S. Regarding Rustic Canyon -- I would certainly drive 100 plus miles to play it. Would I fly from Jersey to play it knowing what I know about the course now? The answer is no and I mean that with no disrespect because I do like the layout. Public courses I would fly a good portion of the country across would include Pacific Dunes and Black Mesa, to name just two.

Matt,
Have you been back to the course since your initial visit? Does Hidden Creek lose points in your book because it does not have the wow factor that say Wolf Creek does?

« **Reply #44 on:** May 19, 2005, 02:45:55 PM »

Huck -

If money and personal commitments were not an issue, I'd be teeing it up with you at Santa Teresa tomorrow.

« **Reply #45 on:** May 19, 2005, 02:47:39 PM »

Tom,

I am with George if personal commitments and money was not an issue I would travel anywhere to play a game of golf. I would travel over the pond to play Hidden Creek.

Brian.

« **Reply #46 on:** May 19, 2005, 02:48:46 PM »

Quote from: George Pazin on May 19, 2005, 02:45:55 PM

Huck -

If money and personal commitments were not an issue, I'd be teeing it up with you at Santa Teresa tomorrow.

Well actually I'll be at San Jose Muni tomorrow (college reunion scramble tourney - good lord is it gonna be fun - but I digress). But I gotcha. Golf is golf.... and golf with friends is worth travelling for anywhere, any time.

Some day I will get someone out there to Teresa.. Gib has played the course, most other locals... but no one from out of town, yet. People tend to have other priorities when visiting. Hell I do also!

TH

« **Reply #47 on:** May 19, 2005, 02:53:19 PM »

Quote from: Mike_Cirba on May 19, 2005, 11:07:37 AM

Quote from: Brian Phillips on May 18, 2005, 04:41:24 PM
Mike,

I am surprised you would give it a 6 or 7. I never played it the day I saw it but it is such a clever but subtle course.

The tie ins around the greens and the seeding are just spot on that to me it is easily an 8 on the Doak scale.

It is the type of course that any architect would be proud of designing because it is a challenge but it is also a wonderful members course. If an architect can achieve that on a course then it is near perfect to me.

Brian

Brian,

You’re correct that Hidden Creek is a wonderful, thoughtful, subtle golf course and this past weekend was my second playing. I would also readily admit that a second playing did slightly increase my already very favorable enjoyment and appreciation of the course, as some of the man-made features have matured since my original visit shortly after the opening of the course.

I’ve also played the course with a wide variety of people of differing skill levels, including local pros and top amateurs. I’ve carefully looked at everything and find myself wondering why I’m being asked to defend my opinion that Hidden Creek is a 6 or 7 on the Doak Scale and in the second half of the Top 100 Modern courses in the country.

That’s AMAZINGLY positive! There have been about 13,000 courses built in this country since 1960 (the cutoff date for GolfWeek Modern list) and any course even considered to be one of the best 100 of those is in elite territory. I just don’t believe that when you extend this to include all of the courses in the country built prior to 1960, including all of the Golden Age courses we love, that Hidden Creek is quite “that” great.

Some Doak Scale numbers in the Philly/NJ region, from “Confidential Guide to Golf Courses”;

Plainfield – 7
Somerset Hills – 7
Aronimink (pre restoration) – 6
Huntingdon Valley – 6
Lancaster – 7
Philly Country Club – 7
Philly Cricket Club – 6
Rolling Green – 7
Saucon Valley (Old) – 7
Saucon Valley (Grace) – 6

How about some number from the British Heathlands courses, which Hidden Creek was inspired by;

Ganton – 8
Moortown – 6
Woodhall Spa – 8
Royal West Norfolk – 7
The Addington – 7
Berkshire Blue – 6
Berkshire Red – 6
Royal Ashdown Forest – 7
Sunningdale Old – 8
Sunningdale New – 7
St. George’s Hill – 8
Swinley Forest – 8
Walton Heath Old – 8
Walton Heath New – 7

So, Brian, when you say that Hidden Creek is “at least an 8”, please tell me that it’s at least as good as every course listed above and better than most of them?

I’ve written extensively in the past about the pros and cons of Hidden Creek, so I won’t repeat that exercise. But, I would like to hear from others about their frank opinions on Hidden Creek and I would like to see them be so bold as to attach at least their own personal “Doak Scale” number and explain why.

I can understand how others might avoid “Top 100” discussions, but we all see some value in the “Doak Scale”, correct? So, let’s see some cuyones out there and cut this vague cliched crap about “it’s a course I could never tire of playing”, or "anyone can play it yet it remains challenging for the better player". Let’s hear a number people!

Interestingly, one of the BIGGEST proponents of the course on this board (who shall remain nameless unless he wishes to identify himself) wrote me after playing there initially and said, basically, “there’s no way that’s a top 100 course”. Perhaps subsequent playings have changed his mind?

Mike,

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. I do not think there is one course you have mentioned that is better than Hidden Creek.

I have played or walked the following:

Aronimink (post restoration)
Woodhall Spa
Berkshire Red
Sunningdale Old
Swinley Forest

None of these beat HC in my opinon. In thirty years time when HC has history which all of these have to their advantage it will be classed a classic.

Brian

« **Reply #48 on:** May 19, 2005, 02:57:43 PM »

Matt: I think the first thing you have to do is to limit yourself to the modern courses in comparing HC with other New Jersey venues. You simply cannot build a course today and somehow claim that it should be compared to Plainfield, Somerset Hills, Baltusrol and so on. What that comparison should be is whether the work done at Essex County has put it in the same league as Plainfield, etc., but that is a discussion for a separate thread.

In my humble opinion HC is what it is because of its greeens - pure and simple that is it. As it was explained to us the greens were not designed as USGA greens so there are no obvious pin placements and this means there are an infinite number of possibilities of how the course will set up on a particular day. The greens are fun and a challenge to read and a challenge to putt perhaps more so than any other greens I've come across. I think they alone are enough to make it a contender for top 100 consideration. The bunkering and chipping areas around the greens then are another very strong positive that work great with the greens.
The holes themselves are of great variety and require you to plan how you will play the hole and the course allows for the well executed recovery shot to be rewarded which is very often not the case anymore today.

I happen to think that Galloway is the best Fazio course I've played and I really enjoy it, however, that being said, I don't think it is a better course than HC. It is a far more punishing course than HC but I wouldn't say it is better. The holes fit well within the surroundings but the routing is extremely forced with the apparent intention to maximize the number of holes that play near the bay. The greens are very good and are a challenge to read and putt but they aren't unique like the ones at HC. One might say that the holes at Galloway are more dramatic, but are they better, I don't think so.

I should think it is a compliment that Galloway and HC are seen as so directly competitive in the minds of many who participate on GCA. Remember, Fazio has done the Ridge and Pine Hill in New Jersey and I don't believe that many on this site would compare them to HC. The criticism of HC seems to be more directed at the property itself as opposed to what was done with the property. If Hidden Creek and Galloway came out as #1 and #2 modern in New Jersey or vice versa, would there really be a serious outcry of which one was on top?

« **Reply #49 on:** May 19, 2005, 03:03:50 PM »

I really like the Doak Scale. The "travel" word is used for #5 thru #8. #9 and #10 I guess travel is not even an issue; you go.

But there are other phrases to look at---

#6--"one of best in area.."
#7---"no obvious weaknesses.."
#8---"course of distinction.."

A 6 is a very good score for a course .

It seems that there is nothing "wrong" with HC, but even its proponents are stretching to come up with superlatives.

News:

Willie_Dow

THuckaby2

Mike_Cirba

THuckaby2

Mike_Cirba

George Pazin

Geoffrey Childs

THuckaby2

Mike_Cirba

Matt_Ward

Geoffrey Childs

THuckaby2

Matt_Ward

THuckaby2

Geoffrey Childs

THuckaby2

George Pazin

THuckaby2

Ben Cowan-Dewar

George Pazin

Brian Phillips

THuckaby2

Brian Phillips

Jerry Kluger

mike_malone