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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Respect for History
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2005, 02:53:15 PM »
BobC and TP.....great posts and I would never have connected the best parts of what you have said without this forum...........PUT ABSINTHE IN THE DAMN FLASK SILLY...now that would be the kicker!!!!....liquid opuim.

now if I wasn't between shaping something and a reliable supply .....but oh well guys, thanks anyway....but the next two will be for you!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 03:01:06 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2005, 03:33:43 PM »
"BobC and TP"!!

Bobsy and TeePee?!

Bob, do you want to go into the 1950s gay rock and roll revival business as a side-line? It'd be some pretty good variety to the law business and just golf. With names like that I think we could open a few doors!  ;)

Hey Paul, just put some everyday Scotch in the damn flask I gave you and if you feel like being a bit more flush or imaginative go with maybe a single malt or something. Don't go putting any damn absinthe in that flask until you have at least five years of daily "flask architecture" experience in the field under your belt. You go putting absinthe in that flask right out of the box you're gonna do something really dumb like cut an ear off by mistake!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 03:39:09 PM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Respect for History
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2005, 04:32:58 PM »
TEP -

Man, these archies have it all figured out. They get blotto. They walk around a field. They point at things and wave their arms. And, boom, they're applauded as great artists.

If you and I did the same thing they would haul us off the precinct station and call our wives.

Bob

P.S. While I appreciate the kind offer to start a gay 50's revival rock 'n roll band, my one man Ludwig Wittgenstein comedy show is already booked solid for the next couple of years.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 04:39:52 PM by BCrosby »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2005, 06:24:18 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Is historical perspective an impediment to creativity ?

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Respect for History
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2005, 09:51:34 PM »
TomMac....although Patrick M adressed you, I would like to advance an answer.....no, far from being an impediment, for the most intuitive , its a requirement.

....and bobsy and teepee and the band thing....well, just call me groupee.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 10:09:10 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2005, 10:01:19 PM »
BobC;

(Or should it be Bobsy);

Not sure why I missed it and went on and posted something else but that "theory" of yours in post #25 is really interesting. How could any reasonable student of the history and evolution of golf and architecture deny that what you say is true to a very large degree.

Conincidentally, I was talking today with a new friend from a Park Jr course in NJ about Park's early style. We were both remarking that other than basically using natural topography as such on the mid-bodies of his holes Park just created his strategies and such from tee to greens by really creating some great greens, period. One could say this is sort of a "cast back" way of great architecture---everything from tee to green sort of emanates from the green backward. It should not be lost on us that Willie Park did not have D-8s and such to easily alter hole mid-bodies to create things that may not be necessary if a course has really great greens that cast strategy backwards well!

I like your theory---it's thoughtful and shows a great feel for the evolution of things.

"If you and I did the same thing they would haul us off the precinct station and call our wives."

PS;

I've been arrested a few times in the past and probably will be again at some point in the future but in the past and definitely in the future I'm smart enough to know the cops should never call my wife in those situations. I know what she would say;

"You guys keep him---I sure don't want him."

I guess I could try to explain things to our cat but I think he hates me too.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 10:09:03 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Respect for History
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2005, 10:29:50 PM »
Tom...I don't have pets of late but I doubt your cat really hates you....It's probably a self esteem thing that needs processing......not your self esteem but the cats.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 07:47:20 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

T_MacWood

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2005, 11:42:57 PM »
Pat
I don't think so. The most creative were always building upon what someone did in the past. When you ignore the past and rely completely upon your creativity you usually run into problems.

In GCA the most creative force is Nature....history has taught us that.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2005, 12:29:57 AM »
Paul Cowley & Tom MacWood,

If that was the case, how would you explain the abandonment of, or departure from, your "dark age" of architecture into the brilliant light of "golden Age" architecture ?

Wouldn't, viewing architecture in its historical perspective, that of the "dark ages", have been responsible for retaining and perpetuating those designs ?

You can't have it both ways.

You can't view "historical perspective" solely in the favorable context of the "Golden Age" and reject the concept in the context of the "dark ages".

If the concept were credible, the "dark ages" would never have come into existance, nor would the "Golden Age".
And, neither would the bland designs of the 50's, 60's or 70's.

Being bound to "historic perspective" can produce stagnation and repetitiveness in golf course architecture.

However, personally, because so many golf courses in the Metro New York area were built during the "Golden Age",
I think those charged with the responsibility of caring for those designs should have a healthy respect or understanding of their origins.  And, in that context, I believe that "historical perspective" is vital.

T_MacWood

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2005, 12:34:09 AM »
The golden age was a rivival of the naturalistic links tradition.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2005, 01:10:40 AM »
The golden age was a rivival of the naturalistic links tradition.


Tom, you can't glibly overlook an age you refer to as a long, dark age in architecture, and state that "Golden Age" architecture simply skipped over or totally ignored the historical perspective of the architecture that immediately preceeded it for the previous 70 years.

Your statement above would indicate that the "Golden Age" architects had NO historical perspective when designing their courses, or, serious memory loss over the previous 70 years.

ian

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2005, 08:16:04 AM »
Tom, you said "In GCA the most creative force is Nature....history has taught us that. "

At St. George's we found a couple of images that proved a few bunker faces fell in very early on. And yet, these bunkers evolved into something even more interesting than the original form. Where do you restore to?

Do you go back to the first built form?

....or do you go back to the form "nature" decided to make, because the architect for got one of the first rules of nature, the angle of repose.


You started with, "Does historical perspective (or a lack of) affect design?"

Yes, if you care about history, you will always make decisions with the history in mind. But you have to be careful how you apply the known history of a club.

I don't think you restore only to the architect's working drawings, but I do think you refer to them. I don't think you use only the on site features unless you can prove they are origional. I don't think you ignore evolution, because often the course has developed more character (than the architect had created) through growth. A good renovation/restoration involves a series of hard choices, it is not something that can be simplified to one technique.

I just don't get why everyone wants to pick a technique and say that one is more correct than others. All are judgements, and each part of a course requires judgement. The only rule I try to stick to, is if I'm not sure, I have a tendency to leave something alone until I am sure.

The other end to all this is not everything created in history is worth keeping. Some of the work is sub-par. A club has a right to make the choice to move on. I look at the Stranz course at Monterey Penninsula, and I am quite sure that regardless of what was there, they made the right decision to move on to something much better.

My rant is done. ;D
« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 08:20:56 AM by Ian Andrew »

T_MacWood

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2005, 08:19:06 AM »
Pat
A revival assumes a design period between the original style and the revived style. I don't understand your point. The Dark Ages were not inspired by the naturalism of links golf. It appears to me the Dark Ages inspiration was the common aesthetic and the geometery of other sports (tennis, cricket, soccer). Another words they ignored their own history and were affected by modern fashion. In the latter part of the 20th C, there was a general move toward historic styles (no matter the medium)....golf followed suit.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 08:19:45 AM by Tom MacWood »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Respect for History
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2005, 08:27:29 AM »
Patrick....I know personally that I learn more from observing what I don't like which in turn helps me define what I do.......In architecture, different period 'styles' are similar as they are usually a reaction to too much or too little of the 'styles' predecessor.
 Some period styles evolve and build from their immediate past ,or some go back to a previous era and re-invent and build further, or sometimes they reject whats the most current and persue a totally new course.....and I feel the evolution of GCA follows a similar path......the golden age was just a bold new step into or from TomMacs old [revival] world....or was it.

..its still hard to figure Raynor et al in the mix....more than a couple dark age links in that groups past.
 
 
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2005, 08:37:05 AM »
Ian Andrew said:

"I just don't get why everyone wants to pick a technique and say that one is more correct than others. All are judgements, and each part of a course requires judgement. The only rule I try to stick to, is if I'm not sure, I have a tendency to leave something alone until I am sure.

The other end to all this is not everything created in history is worth keeping. Some of the work is sub-par. A club has a right to make the choice to move on. I look at the Stranz course at Monterey Penninsula, and I am quite sure that regardless of what was there, they made the right decision to move on to something much better."

Ian:

This is really well said on your part---really well said. There are few I know who are as sympathetic to classic golf architecture as you are, in my opinion. All the things that go through your mind, as I've seen them at various courses and times is good evidence of that. What you said above is both very sympathetic to classic architecture as well as necessarily realistic of all that architecture is in the context of golfers playing the game on a golf course. I'm not saying that all golfers and all club memberships agree with you, I'm just saying that I believe your sensibilities are very sympathetic to classic architecture while at the same time being realistic to all it is and is supposed to be.

It does not surprise me that Tom MacWood does not seem to understand or endorse your point---even if it's Patrick he's apparently responding to in the next post and not you. It's not because you didn't express or explain your point well, it's just because it's a point I do not believe he's capable of understanding or willing to even attempt to understand, much less endorse. But perhaps he might give a shot at responding to your really good post exclusively.

And I must say I don't understand his point in the next post--if he even has a point. Do you?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 08:40:34 AM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Respect for History
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2005, 08:40:30 AM »
TomP 8)ul.....as much as I have appreciated your gift, I don't seem to remember it coming with a set of instructions, something you might want to rectify in the future.

but since possession is nine tenths of the law, I will use it as I see most fit, cause you are not getting it back.
.....it's proving most helpfull in my quest to put Davis' career in 'ruins'.....

 p ;)ul
« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 08:41:21 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2005, 08:48:45 AM »
Paul:

If you go ahead and put whatever you want to put in that flask---whether it's scotch or absinthe or something else even more mind-expanding and then you cut your ear off because of something in that flask I'd frown on, don't blame me.

Oh the hell with it---you put whatever you want in there---but if you do I want a report on what it produces. By that I mean to said, at some point in the future, I want you to tell me something like; "this is a scotch bunker and that one over there is a bourbon bunker and that really wild and wonderful green over there is an Absinthe green. And see that crazy wing on the left rear of that green---that's what I was creating and bleed all over when I cut my left ear off!"
« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 08:49:48 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2005, 08:49:45 AM »
TE
I think I have said this before...one of the reasons I love studying the architecture and architects of the golden age is the variety. It was one of that periods greatest strenghts IMO.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Respect for History
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2005, 08:53:31 AM »
Ian ...I concur completely about MPCC Stranz...the new course is a great improvement even if it meant erasing something with Raynor/Banks roots.....sometimes one has to make a tough call and venture away from the security of the fire [old cave man adage].
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

ian

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2005, 08:55:44 AM »
Tom Mac,

I totally agree with your comment on variety.

I still think the majority of current architects practicing are rooted to the modern era, and not to the Golden Age. Some have a foot in both camps, but even that doesn't work well.

TEPaul

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2005, 09:11:46 AM »
"TE
I think I have said this before...one of the reasons I love studying the architecture and architects of the golden age is the variety. It was one of that periods greatest strenghts IMO."

Tom:

I couldn't agree more. The variety of Golden Age architecture is awesome and that variety is born out of a whole lot of imagination, analysis, exploration of interesting ways of creating concepts in play and visual aesthetics. Those guys were pushing the envelope ten ways to Sunday. Sure there were cross-currents and collaboratiions and some commonality of purpose in certain basic themes. Certainly a push to either show or express all kinds of iterations of naturalism in how they either used land or created man-made architecture was utmost or basically underlying that time. There were a lot of things going on in that era---golf and its architecture was coming of age with rapidity.  

A lot of diverse influences and again with naturalism as the driving force. However, I do not think anyone can assign as the primary influence of all that to this movement known as "arts and crafts". Not unless someone tries to assign an interest in naturalism in anything or everything to the "Arts and Crafts" movement----and why would anyone interested in historic accuracy and the various distinct and diverse and varietal little and big influences within various art forms want to do that?

To me the interest is not in some huge general construct of similarity that very likely just never existed---the interest is in identifying and understanding influences that are distinct from one another that did exist. A most interesting one was MacKenzie's ideas on the application of military camouflage in golf architecture. Are you saying he got that from the "arts and crafts" movement? Then why did he say he got that from his observations in the Boer War? Were the Boers natural military trench installations primarily influenced by the "Arts and Crafts" movement?  ;)

There's been regionalism, and social and artistic differences and distinctions all over this world since the beginning of time. Do you think Pugin, Morris, Rushkin, Hutchinson and Country Life and the A/C movement was the primary influence on it all??   ;)

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Respect for History
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2005, 09:26:10 AM »
...TomTomTom.....I'm getting tired of this and I think its finally time to put a flask where your mouth is.
 I'm calling the owner of that new course we will be building in Newark Del and having him pay you to be a design consultant.....but be forewarned , no dirt will be moved anywhere without a strategic story for its movement.
 You will be expected to help with the scripting.
 I will supply your first flask[but not a replacement].
 Bail money will not be considered a legitiment expense.
  [I solve this by sleeping in my truck at times].

...talk this over with your lawyer, wife or cat ,whatever.
   I will be in touch, this is a serious offer [I find humour
     overated].
   Paul
« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 09:26:50 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2005, 10:29:24 AM »

A revival assumes a design period between the original style and the revived style. I don't understand your point.

With 70 years of an alleged school of design, your dark ages, if those in the "Golden Age" had a sense of your historical perspective, in much the same fashion that you want today's designers to have a sense of historical perspective when it comes to the "Golden Age", those designers would have not made the radical departure to the new age, the Golden Age"

You want "historical perspective" to influence today's designers, yet, you maintain that "historical perspective" didn't and shouldn't have influenced the "golden Age" designers.  For if it had any MEANINGFUL influence, the dark ages would have been perpetuated.

My point is that you can't view and champion "historical perspective" in a selective, rather than a consistent context.

Either "historical perspective" is relevant as a constant, or it's irrelevant.
[/color]

The Dark Ages were not inspired by the naturalism of links golf.

That would indicate that "historical perspective" had little or no influence.
[/color]

It appears to me the Dark Ages inspiration was the common aesthetic and the geometery of other sports (tennis, cricket, soccer). Another words they ignored their own history and were affected by modern fashion. In the latter part of the 20th C, there was a general move toward historic styles (no matter the medium)....golf followed suit.

This is where we disagree.
You ignore "historical perspective" in the context of golf course architecture, and chose to shift mediums away from golf course architecture to other disciplines.

If golf course architecture was viewed with an eye toward influential "historical perspective" the dark ages would never have been born, because the historical perspective was Linksland golf course architecture.

And, if golf course architecture was viewed with an eye toward influential "historical perspective" the "golden age" never would have sprung to life so quickly because the Dark ages would have been continued much longer.

Your bundling of all arts and style into a single monolithic movement that evolves simultaneously, uniformly and almost identically is incorrect.  What you seem to ignore is the nature of golf course architecture, which is the preparation of a field of play on a living organism.  

Not once, since the origin of GOLF, has the principle of the game changed.  A player must get the ball from point A to point B in as few strokes as possible.

Taking the game from its linksian origins to land essentially unsuited for golf is the principle cause of the departure in the structure of the field of play, and not some alleged movement inspired by events and fads unrelated to golf course architecture.

It was the difficulty, or inability of the novices, the experimentors, the early inland architects, to structure a field of play on land ill suited for that purpose, especially when the only context in which they understood golf and its field of play, was in the context of the links.

It was the difficulty of the challenge, including the lack experience, ability and expertise in transitioning and transposing the game from its linksian origins and principles, to strange land, ill suited for the purpose, in a historical context, that led to the radical departure in the design in golf's early inland courses.

But, that's just my opinion.  

Everyone with a memory has a "historical perspective".
It's the degree to which it influences you that is the critical question, and the one I allude to above.
[/color]
« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 10:34:33 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

T_MacWood

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2005, 11:43:29 AM »
“With 70 years of an alleged school of design, your dark ages, if those in the "Golden Age" had a sense of your historical perspective, in much the same fashion that you want today's designers to have a sense of historical perspective when it comes to the "Golden Age", those designers would have not made the radical departure to the new age, the Golden Age"

Pat
Huh? The architects of the golden age should have continued the Victorian style (which ignored the historical model)?

I think one of the roles historians have is not only identifying periods of design, but also evaluating the pros and cons of the period--and the wisdom of emulating or borrowing from the period. Clearly most historians today look at the Victorian era as a period of poor design...I don't know if I ever seen or heard anyone recommend that period (with the possible exception of Adam Collins).

The way I see it there is a difference between a general design philosophy or a historical design philosophy or style affecting different medium….for example the order and symmetry of Classical being applied to garden design, and looking specificially at a medium's historic tradition.

One of the interesting aspects of design thought in the early 20th C. was the diversity from medium to medium or even from one region to another within the medium. There was a sensativity to historic and regional design.

In 1880 and 1900, Golf design had its own historical tradition, unfortunately the golf architects (and I use that term loosely) in 1880 chose to ignore that tradition and used a foreign unnatural style based on the popular aesthetic. But fortunately (IMO) the architects in 1900 began to embrace the historic tradition and reject the historical ignoring Dark Age style.  

DARK AGES implies intellectual stagnation, ignorance and cultural decline.

This is getting way too complicated....my brain is about to go into its own dark age.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 12:01:05 PM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:Respect for History
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2005, 12:08:04 PM »
"A lot of diverse influences and again with naturalism as the driving force. However, I do not think anyone can assign as the primary influence of all that to this movement known as 'arts and crafts'."

TE
Re-read the essay. IMO Hutchinson was the primary influence, he recommended the naturally evolved links as the model (an idea consistant with the prevalent design philosophy of the time). Or if you prefer, the links were the primary influence thanks to Hutchinson's encouragment.

In the essay I also argued that golf architecture should be considered as one of the design medium within the A&C Movement.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 12:30:35 PM by Tom MacWood »