Single biggest shock in GD's newest ranking?

« **Reply #25 on:** April 04, 2005, 09:04:06 PM »

Ran,

For years and years and years the panelist who comprised the Golf Digest ranking group were the same people, perhaps the magazine reorganized or shuffled their panelists, which contributed to this change, along with the removal of the "tradition" category.

I can't imagine a panelist who for 20+ years has shown a consistency in his rankings, suddenly, turning them topsy turvy.

Since Ron Whitten authored the preface it would seem to indicate that he's involved

« **Reply #26 on:** April 04, 2005, 09:08:47 PM »

Quote from: SPDB on April 04, 2005, 08:59:12 PM

I have not investigated the criteria

Sean,

I officially nominate you to the Golf Digest panel. It appears you will fit right in.

« **Reply #27 on:** April 04, 2005, 09:19:43 PM »

Mike:

Quote from: Mike Sweeney on April 04, 2005, 07:19:13 PM

However if you are in charge of a ratings panel, and they can't see the difference between Friar's Head and Atlantic, then you are not educating your panelist.

Why even have panelists? This education you seek is precisely what I was talking about w/r/t engineered outcomes.

But you continue:

Quote from: Mike Sweeney on April 04, 2005, 08:45:59 PM

Matt Ward is right. They need to cut their raters in half, pick the ones who care versus the ones that don't care, and then educate them on what is great, not great and then build consistency.

Perhaps the seminar should include a visual aide section with a picture of Friars Head with the caption "GREAT" and then one of Atlantic with the caption "GOOD (BUT NOT AS GOOD AS FRIARS HEAD)"

Also, what do you mean by "[raters] who don't care"?

« **Reply #28 on:** April 04, 2005, 09:22:59 PM »

1. Rolling Green not in top 25 in PA. I've only played 3 of the top 25 in PA, but I think its better than Glen Mills which was #16.

2. As a pleasant surprise it was nice to see Tripp Davis' The Tribute made the top 100 public at #73. (Wondering, however, why the Rawls course didn't make it even though it was rated ahead of the Tribute in Texas).

« **Reply #29 on:** April 04, 2005, 09:24:05 PM »

Quote from: JBergan on April 04, 2005, 08:55:44 PM

On the local level, Pine Barrens, ShoreGate and Scotland Run making the NJ list while Pine Hill didn't make the cut.

That surprised me too.

« **Reply #30 on:** April 04, 2005, 10:05:53 PM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on April 04, 2005, 08:05:17 PM

Friar's Head is #14 because it doesn't have a quorum yet. There are 13 courses in NY state with enough votes to put them in the top 100, so it can't be listed ahead of them.

Tom,

Yes, but the course above Friar's on the NY state list, Piping Rock, is also not in the Top 100, so they didn't just stick it "last". If FH ranked high enough to warrant top 100 but didn't have enough votes, it would be ahead of PR (not Top 100) but behind Hudson N. (Top 100).

John V.,

I responded in the other thread the GD got rid of the waiting list a couple of lists ago. Current GD Top 100 clubs, Dallas National (2002), Briar's Creek (2002), and Kinloch (2001) are all less than 5 years old.

« **Reply #31 on:** April 04, 2005, 10:19:54 PM »

That many people visited Minnesota.

« **Reply #32 on:** April 04, 2005, 10:32:20 PM »

Mike Sweeney, first of all I appreciate the personal thoughts.

But I am certainly not going to question the management of the GD panel. They have been very good to me, and despite all of the attacks in this forum, I continue to believe they do a good job and rank things correctly. Of course getting any admission of this is in here is like preaching the Koran in Vatican City, so what do you expect? In any case, in my nearly 4 years of involvement with the panel, I have never had any correspondence, contact or anything with Ron Whitten. It was always made quite clear to me who ran the panel, and those are the names listed in the article. So I don't see any confusion here at all.

Obviously it is disappointing to me they eliminated "tradition" without telling us, but what the hell, that was a criterion we didn't contribute much to anyway... Doesn't bother me much in the end.

In any case, I have to agree with Joel. The single biggest shock is the fact Ran himself posted this thread. We shall take any complaints hereafter about topics concerning ratings and raters with a rather large ocean of salt.

In the meantime, I continue to stand ready to take my lumps in here. God I love early April.

But fear not, I'll live. The rest of the world loves the GD list.

TH

« **Reply #33 on:** April 04, 2005, 10:42:43 PM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on April 04, 2005, 08:05:17 PM

Biggest disappointment: to see Pacific Dunes rated so low on the Conditioning standard. From my point of view the conditioning there is as good as it could ever be ... you can putt from forty yards out on the fairway, and it plays like it was designed. GOLF DIGEST panelists must be rating conditioning by holding up a color strip to see how green the course is, and writing down the corresponding number.

That's really funny. Pebble is rated higher than Pacific on conditioning. For me and many others here, Pacific has spectacular playing conditions, the best on the West Coast. I must conclude the playing public doesn't appreciate the versatility that the dry fescue surface offers. OK, I'll say it. Some people don't get it.

« **Reply #34 on:** April 04, 2005, 10:50:47 PM »

That Trump International couldn't find it's way into the top half of the list. Hard to believe there is only one Trump course listed. Trump is the best. I really think Trump should get even by buying GD and shutting the whole operation down. Then relegating Ron Whiiten to be the door man at Trump Towers. Seriously this is nonsense. Trump was kind enough to give them an exclusive interview last year. This is a travesty of justice and totally ungrateful.

« **Reply #35 on:** April 04, 2005, 11:08:13 PM »

Quote from: SPDB on April 04, 2005, 09:19:43 PM

Perhaps the seminar should include a visual aide section with a picture of Friars Head with the caption "GREAT" and then one of Atlantic with the caption "GOOD (BUT NOT AS GOOD AS FRIARS HEAD)"

Sean,

In my (and yours) PowerPoint presentation, there would be a picture of the golf courses. In Golf Digest, it appears it would include the Club Houses, so obviously FH loses since the clubhouse is a pile of dirt last I heard.

Ron Whitten of Golf Digest states:

"These newer courses also represent the latest fashion in golf design. All are opulent in presentation, immaculate in their conditioning and, with one exception, very exclusive. Michigan's Arcadia Bluffs is the only public course among the 18 new members, and it's expensive to play. (This exclusivity is one reason we offer a companion ranking, America's 100 Greatest Public Courses.)"

Wanna bet that in 2009 when the clubhouse is in place in a few years that Friar's Head jumps ahead of Atlantic in the "biennial survey of the best in American golf course architecture" ?

If you and others believe that Atlantic is architecturally better than FH, I respect that. It just should not be because of the clubhouse, membership or 9 hole course/estate next door that is up for sale for $30 something million by one of the members.

I state again, I like Atlantic GC alot ! Now please don't use your Moot Court skills and pick apart my words. Please tell me where you think I am architecturally offbase.

« **Reply #36 on:** April 04, 2005, 11:28:41 PM »

Does anyone else out there think that Trump International in Palm Beach deserves any ranking in the top 100? I played it recently and sure it has about 9 or 10 good holes, an awesome glitzy clubhouse, and some stellar waterfalls, but really! I don't think it could get anywhere close in the Golf Magazine or Golfweek ratings.

Far and away the biggest shock is Friar's Head not making the list. It belongs in the top 25 in the country in my opinion. Blessed with an incredible piece of land, Crenshaw and Coore masterminded a wonderful track and every hole there is fabulous. Not ranking FH is absolutely ridiculous.

« **Reply #37 on:** April 04, 2005, 11:53:00 PM »

Here's the "BIGGEST SHOCK"!!!!

The Beverly CC, after undergoing a $1.5 million dollar restoration, falls from #7 in the state of ILLINOIS (keep in mind that Beverly made the first 6 GD lists!!), to # 17 in 2005 (what a joke!).

Who can explain this one!?!!???~!!!???

« **Reply #38 on:** April 04, 2005, 11:58:00 PM »

How on earth can Beverly CC make the top 100 Classical list on Golfweeks list, yet managed to fall 10 places on GD's list!!!!!?

??

Are these guys looking at the same courses?

How can two panels be so 'far off' from each other??

« **Reply #39 on:** April 05, 2005, 12:25:10 AM »

Let's look on the bright side -

1) We've got plenty o' fodder for snarky anti-GD and rater comments for the next year. Righteous indignation is its own reward...

2) All the Joe Sixpack cigar chompin' golfers who read GD won't be vying as hard for the guest slots at courses like Friar's Head... more for us!

(PS - when I clicked on the Ran posted thread, of course I expected too see a posting date of 1999 or 2000 under message #1... so I too second or third that as the biggest shock...)

« **Reply #40 on:** April 05, 2005, 12:37:16 AM »

Tom Huckaby,

The way you ignore all the valid criticisms and proclaim about the GD list that you "continue to believe they do a good job and rank things correctly" reminds me of the gyrations politicians make when their party or one of its members is clearly in the wrong but they go on FOX or CNN and happily sing the party line and somehow manage to keep a straight face. Keep drinking that kool aid!

I'm not saying ratings are easy to do or that anyone could possibly come up with rankings that wouldn't meet with some criticism. But the critique of the Golfweek list here on GCA recently had to do with much finer points and small issues compared to the egregious flaws many have pointed out with the GD results. And I suspect that if you take the kind of folks who maybe play a lot of courses but aren't quite looking at things the same way we do here (preferring bright green grass and nice soft greens, perhaps) you would still find a lot more criticism of the GD list than the GW list from them as well.

This isn't intended as a personal criticism (well, maybe a little for your blind allegiance in the face of damning evidence

) because I'd be willing to bet you are one of the more knowledgeable and well travelled raters GD has. But given the quality of their overall results by any objective standard, I have to conclude that you are the exception and not the rule in that group.

« **Reply #41 on:** April 05, 2005, 02:38:29 AM »

Are these courses better than Riviera?...

43.    FLINT HILLS NATIONAL G.C.

44.    INTERLACHEN C.C.

45.    RICH HARVEST LINKS

47. RIVIERA C.C.

Riviera is #47? Is this an April Fool's joke?

Jeff F.

« **Reply #42 on:** April 05, 2005, 03:02:43 AM »

Whitten did an interview on TGC.
He mentioned the quorum is 35.
I know their panel is the largest, but 35 is a pretty good number. Considering 35, Porcupine Creek in Palm Desert.
I'm unsure they've had 35 rounds in 2005 so far.

I also expected Torrey Pines to be in the Top 100.
Oh -sorry - That's Golf Magazine that has architects on their panel, right?

« **Reply #43 on:** April 05, 2005, 03:19:26 AM »

ditto the #2 in Hawaii:
Kuki’o Golf and Beach Club K a i l u a - Kona

« **Reply #44 on:** April 05, 2005, 04:02:42 AM »

Tom Huckaby,

As the resident GD rater, could you clarify for me whether GD provides any guidance to the raters as to how to score each of the criteria? Do they provide a rating guide that tries to define that, for instance, a 5 in memorability means you can remember 9 of the holes after a month? My experience is in rating courses in the USGA rating/slope sense where there is a large manual that dictates how every rater measures a course, so there is some commonality of approach and hopefully results.

Also, how many courses would an average GD rater rate in a year? Do you have any minimum requirements? Any minimum requirements to rate some number of courses outside the current top 100?

Some things I found curious in the detail scoring:

The Prince Course, which I haven't played, must be unwalkable since it got a 0.0; a way worse than any other course. Mind you , ANGC was rated easier to walk than Pac Dunes - that's hard to fathom.

Pebble has better aesthetics and conditioning than PD; curious indeed.

Given the scoring scheme, and the closeness of the scoring in the top 100, small differences in perceptions can make large differences in ranking. But then, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The majority of GD raters appear to have different perceptions of beauty than most of the people on this forum.

It would be interesting to do a top 100 ranking based on the scoring of the members of this forum. Just think of the great internal debates then. We could form a competitive list to GD and GW.

The Internet is surely a better publishing medium than a glossy magazine.

« **Reply #45 on:** April 05, 2005, 05:58:09 AM »

NEW YORK, April 5 /PRNewswire/ --

- Canada and Scotland Represented with Most Courses; 13 Apiece

- Supplemental Survey Includes Courses from 184 Nations and Territories; Largest Listing of the Planet’s Golf Courses Ever Undertaken

For the first time in the magazine’s 55-year history, Golf Digest has compiled a ranking of The 100 Best Courses Outside the U.S., a list that encompasses 25 countries. The full list of The 100 Best Courses Outside the U.S. is attached and appears in the magazine’s May issue, on newsstands April 12. The list can also be viewed today at http://www.golfdigest.com.

The ranking is part of Golf Digest’s fourth edition of Planet Golf, a biennial feature in the magazine that looks at the best places to play in the corners of the globe. The Old Course at St. Andrews in Scotland was named No. 1, followed by Australia’s Royal Melbourne G.C. (Composite, No.2); Royal Portrush (Northern Ireland, No. 3); Royal County Down G.C. (Northern Ireland, No. 4) and Scotland’s Royal Dornoch G.C. rounding out the top five.

In order to determine the rankings, Golf Digest contacted every golf association, federation and union in the world for the number of courses and golfers in their country, plus nominations for their best layouts. Then, after extensive research, the magazine created a comprehensive master ballot with 1,005 of the best courses on Earth. The ballots were sent to Golf Digest’s 800-plus international course-rating panelists and to the editors of the magazine’s 28 foreign editions.

The same eight criteria that form the basis of Golf Digest’s famed America’s 100 Greatest Golf Courses rankings, which also appear in the May issue, are considered in determining The 100 Best Courses Outside the U.S. The criteria includes: shot values, resistance to scoring, design variety, memorability, aesthetics, conditioning, ambience and walkability.

Also part of Golf Digest’s Planet Golf rankings is a supplemental listing that includes courses from 184 nations and territories. This listing will appear in a booklet called The World’s Greatest Golf, presented by Rolex, and will accompany Golf Digest subscriber copies. The listing will also be available online at http://www.golfdigest.com.

Golf Digest is the largest golf publication in the world, with 28 foreign editions in 49 territories in 17 languages.

When compiling The 100 Best Courses Outside the U.S. ranking and supplemental listing, Golf Digest uncovered many fascinating golf facts. Here’s a sampling:

- Approximate number of golf courses in the world: 31, 857
- Proportion of humans who are golfers: 0.94 percent
- Most populous countries where Golf Digest found no evidence of golf:
Ukraine (pop. 47,732,079); Sudan; Yemen (20,024,867); Mali (11,
956,788); Belarus (10,310,520)
- World’s most northerly golf course: Sondie Artic Desert Golf Course,
Kangerlussuaq, Greenland
- Most southerly: Ushuaia G.C., Argentina
- Most easterly: Tonga G.C., Nukualofa, Tonga
- Most westerly: Faleata C.C., Apia, Samoa
- Amount of earth’s land mass devoted to golf courses: 0.014 percent

THE 100 BEST COURSES OUTSIDE THE U.S.

1. St. Andrews (Old) St. Andrews, Scotland
2. Royal Melbourne G.C. (Composite) Black Rock, Australia
3. Royal Portrush G.C. (Dunluce) Portrush, N. Ireland
4. Royal County Down G.C. Newcastle, N. Ireland
5. Royal Dornoch G.C. (Championship) Dornoch, Scotland
6. Muirfield Gullane, Scotland
7. Ballybunion G.C. (Old) Ballybunion, Ireland
8. New South Wales G.C. Sydney, Australia
9. National G.C. Woodbridge, Canada
10. St. George’s G. & C.C. Islington, Canada
11. Turnberry (Ailsa) Turnberry, Scotland
12. Carnoustie G.C. (Championship) Carnoustie, Scotland
13. Kingston Heath G.C. Melbourne, Australia
14. Hamilton G. & C.C. Ancaster, Canada
15. Royal Porthcawl G.C. Porthcawl, Wales
16. Royal St. George’s G.C.Sandwich, England
17. Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog) La Romana, Dominican Republic
18. Sunningdale G.C. (Old) Sunningdale, England
19. Beacon Hall G.C. Aurora, Canada
20. Kingsbarns G. Links St. Andrews, Scotland
21. Loch Lomond G.C. Luss, Scotland
22. Highlands Links Cape Breton, Canada
23. Swinley Forest G.C. Ascot, England
24. Hirono G.C. Hyogo, Japan
25. Leopard Creek G. Estate & C.C. Malelane, South Africa
26. Royal Birkdale G.C. Southport, England
27. Lahinch G.C. (Old) Lahinch, Ireland
28. Golf de Morfontaine Morfontaine, France
29. Gary Player C.C. Sun City, S. Africa
30. Portmarnock G.C. (Old) Portmarnock, Ireland
31. Royal Westmoreland G. & C.C. St. James, Barbados
32. Royal Adelaide G.C. Adelaide, Australia
33. Le Golf National (L’Albatros) Guyancourt, France
34. Royal Troon G.C. (Old) Troon, Scotland
35. The National G.C. (Moonah) Cape Schanck, Australia
36. Royal Lytham and St. Annes G.C. Lytham St. Annes, England
37. Cruden Bay G.C. Cruden Bay, Scotland
38. San Lorenzo G.C. Almancil, Algarve, Portugal
39. Macrihanish G.C. Campbeltown, Scotland
40. Tokyo G.C. Saitama, Japan
41. Woodhall Spa G.C. (Hotchkin) Woodhall Spa, England
42. Ganton G.C. Ganton, England
43. Les Bordes Beaugency, France
44. Kasumigaseki C.C. (East) Saitama, Japan
45. Mid Ocean Club Tucker’s Town, Bermuda
46. Redtail G. Cse. Port Stanley, Canada
47. Cape Kidnappers G.C. Hawke’s Bay, New Zealand
48. Domaine Imperial G.C. Gland, Switzerland
49. Barnbougle Dunes G. Links Bridport, Tasmania, Australia
50. Taman Dayu G.C. Pasuruan, Indonesia
51. Spring City G. & Lake Resort (Lake) Kunming, China
52. Spring City G. & Lake Resort (Mountain) Kunming, China
53. Playa Dorada G. Cse. Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic
54. Wairakei International G. Cse. Taupo, New Zealand
55. Santa Elena G.C. (RTJ2) Cabuyao, Laguna, Philippines
56. Capilano G.C. West Vancouver, Canada
57. Russley G.C. Christchurch, New Zealand
58. Puerto Azul G.C. Ternate, Cavite, Philippines
59. The Links at Fancourt George, South Africa
60. Paraparaumu Beach G.C. Paraparaumu Beach, New Zealand
61. The European Club Brittas Bay, Ireland
62. Durban C.C. Durban, South Africa
63. Cabo del Sol G.C. (Ocean) Los Cabos, Mexico
64. G.C. de Barbaroux Brignoles, France
65. Western Gailes G.C. Irvine, Scotland
66. Metropolitan G.C. Melbourne, Australia
67. Royal St. David’s G.C. Harlech, Wales
68. The Lakes G.C. Sydney, Australia
69. Saujana G. & C.C. (Bunga Raya) Selangor, Malaysia
70. The Mines Resort & G.C. Selangor, Malaysia
71. Royal Montreal G.C. (Blue) Ile Bizard, Canada
72. Pinx G.C. Jeju Island, South Korea
73. Royal Liverpool G.C. Hoylake, England
74. Greywolf G.C. Panorama, Canada
75. Valderrama G.C. Sotogrande, Spain
76. The Gulf Harbour C.C. Whangaparaoa, New Zealand
77. Banff Springs G.C. (Stanley Thompson) Banff, Canada
78. Angus Glen G.C. (South) Markham, Canada
79. Lynx at Kingswood Park Fredericton, Canada
80. Aberdovey G.C. Aberdovey, Wales
81. Fox Harb’r G. Resort & Spa, Wallace, Canada
82. Buenos Aires G.C. Bella Vista, Buenos Aires, Argentina
83. Shenzhen G.C. Shenzhen, China
84. Vilamoura G.C. (Old) Vilamoura, Portugal
85. Luisita G.C. Tarlac, Philippines
86. North Berwick G.C. North Berwick, Scotland
87. Kawana Hotel G.C. (Fiji) Shizuoka, Japan
88. Yalong Bay G.C. Hainan Island, China
89. Emirates G.C. (Majlis) Dubai, United Arab Emirates
90. Rye G.C. Rye, England
91. Sotogrande G.C. Sotogrande, Spain
92. Waterville G. Links Waterville, Ireland
93. Kauri Cliffs G.C. & Lodge Northland, New Zealand
94. Olivos G.C. Buenos Aires, Argentina
95. Wentworth G.C. (West) Virginia Water, England
96. Mission Hills G.C. (World Cup) Shenzhen, China
97. Jockey Club (Colorada) San Isidro, Buenos Aires, Argentina
98. St. Andrews (New) St. Andrews, Scotland
99. Golf de Fontainebleau Fontainebleau, France
100. Arabella Estate & G.C. Kleinmond, South Africa

« **Reply #46 on:** April 05, 2005, 06:49:09 AM »

45. RICH HARVEST LINKS

Must still be 'April Fools Day'!!!!!!!!?

??!!!!!

« **Reply #47 on:** April 05, 2005, 07:08:17 AM »

The international list shocked me. I am so bias towards American golf that it almosts bothers me to not see PVGC the locomotive of any list.

But what really shocked me is the strength of Canada. 3-4 in the top 25? I had no idea.

Ben, disconnect your phone. I'm rearranging my priorities.

JC

« **Reply #48 on:** April 05, 2005, 07:52:27 AM »

How about Arcadia Bluffs coming in at #56 overall and #10 public.

I'd say that is hugely positive.

Great course w/ some well deserved recognition.

On the downside, 100 best public courses and no Wildhorse?

You gotta be kidding me!!

« **Reply #49 on:** April 05, 2005, 07:53:43 AM »

Paul:

I agree! Either it's still April Fools Day or the GD panelists were adding big bonus points for best classic car museum on property. To even have Rich Harvest Links in the GD Top 100 is travesty enough, but to have it ranked 45th is akin to saying Paris Hilton can act and sing. According to the latest rankings I have personally played 67 of GD's Top 100. As far as I'm concerned it's 66!!!

Even pre restoration Beverly and Rich Harvest Links occupied two entirely different planets architecturally!

Andy Silis

News:

Patrick_Mucci

Mike_Sweeney

SPDB

astavrides

astavrides

Scott_Burroughs

Mike Nuzzo

THuckaby2

John Kirk

Bill Gayne

Mike_Sweeney

Wayne Freeman

Paul Richards

Paul Richards

johnk

Doug Siebert

Jeff Fortson

Thomas_Brown

Thomas_Brown

Bryan Izatt

Mark_Guiniven

Paul Richards

Jonathan Cummings

John Foley

Andy Silis