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BigEdSC

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2005, 02:43:22 PM »
The short answer.

Almost any golf course where it's more than 100 yards from the green to the next tee box.  Notice I said "almost" because someone will come up with an exception.

wsmorrison

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2005, 02:49:05 PM »
A course where you really can't change the routing, not that you would want to is Merion.  As Tom Paul has indicated previously, the routing is definitely dictated by the property lines.

ForkaB

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2005, 02:58:38 PM »
IMO, Nicklaus' PGA Centenary course at Gleneagles (formerly the Monarch's course) is poorly routed.  Long walks, criss-crossing cartpaths, no sense of continuity or flow.  :(

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2005, 03:45:26 PM »
Is the routing necessarily bad if it provides the best holes possible but leaves long or awkward walks? One of my favorite courses in the Boston area is Dedham Country and Polo Club. The 17th and 18th tees are right next to each other. The 17th is a par 3, so after you hit your shot and putt out (hopefully for birdie), you retrace your steps to get to 18. Pretty awkward, but the 17th is a very neat reverse Redan kind of hole that is very good—I wouldn't want it eliminated just for the sake of avoiding that odd walk.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2005, 04:46:33 PM »
I have privately critiqued a few courses with the phrase "Missed Every Natural Golf Hole on the Property!" and not just for amateur architects, either.  It is possible to get it way wrong for reasons mentioned, and some others.

A few gca types tend to route hill top to hill top, which always ends up terrible for everyone except the lucky few who hit the hilltop. A few others tend to wrap doglegs parallelling contours, resulting in repetitive reverse slope fairways on doglegs.  Still others fail to account for the wind - my personal unfavorite holes are crosswind holes with large ponds on the upwind side forcing golfers to aim over the water to hit a green in normal winds.

The worst is that missing one hole can sometimes ripple all the way through the routing!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2005, 06:30:28 PM »
   I feel GOOD routing is something a person of ability can learn but conversely cannot be taught easily....its really about feel and intuition based on experience, knowledge and common sense, grounded by an ability to recognise the givens and constraints of a site and its varied OPTIONS...

 options, options, options and an inate ability to evaluate and choose.

....the less options one can envision the more chances of being dead on arrival....or boring or suck...and real estate reguirements are not always a good excuse because an able person can affect the landplan to accomodate both the needs of golf and residences.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 10:04:05 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2005, 08:33:34 PM »
Brad,
Pat, those rules are nonsense - guidelines for landscape architects but not for real designers.

If you review classic golf course after classic golf course, the works of those old dead guys, I think you'll see a pattern, and that pattern incorporates some, if not all of those guidelines.
[/color]

Among the courses that violate all of those rules are:

St. Andrews (Old)color=green]  # 1 = SW, # 18 = NE,
Club house on the perimeter of the property, clubhouse elevated.  Two loops, one clockwise, one counter clockwise
[/color]
 
The Country Club, # 1 =SE, # 18 = NW,
Two loops, front nine counter clockwise, back nine clockwise.
[/color]

Cypress Point# 1 = NE, # 18 = N, The clubhouse sits high above the golf course.[/color]

There are lots of bad routings, and they don't get much fame because they are so bad! The holes don't fit the land, they are forced, they are difficult to walk, they waste the site, the site's awful to begin with or housing totally overwhelms the land.

Courses with housing were exempted since the sale of the homes/condos was the financial focus of the developer.
[/color]

A few come to mind, for various reasons:

Woodhill, Mn. (Ross)
Idaho Falls CC, Id. (William F. Bell)
Pinehurst No. 7, NC (Rees Jones)
Treetops-Jones, Mich. (RTJ)
Shattuck, NH (Brian Silva)
Old North State, NC (Fazio)

In some cases, the sites are awful and the holes do they best they can but the course should never have been built (Shattuck).

Encumbered sites were also exempted.
[/color]

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2005, 08:35:31 PM »
Ed Gabalvy,

How would you categorize Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes using your criterion ?

Mark Fine,

It's not about whether a better routing could be had at Sand Hills or anywhere else, it's about whether or not the current routing is BAD.

How can you ask me to define wrong ?
Or should I have taken 1,000 words to elaborate in a space that permits a 15 word title ?

C'mon, you know what I mean.

Have you ever played a golf course with a BAD routing, and if so, why was it a bad routing, and, is a BAD routing a rare exception ?

Paul Turner,

What's your take on TOC ?

Paul Thomas,

You say Shoreacres is good, Shivas says it's bad.
I haven't seen it, so I can't judge.
Have you seen the Ravines in Florida, or are you content to accept Tom Doak's word as the Gospel ?

Mike Cirba,

I haven't seen either site, but perhaps this year I'll get around a little more.  No having seen them, what brings you to the conclusion that they're BAD routings ?

Chris Brauner,

Is all the land at Spyglass on the sandy, ocean front, or does it move up into the forests ?  ?    ?     ?

Could they have fitted all 18 holes into the land that's adjacent to the ocean and ocean views ?   ?  ?

Wayne Morrison,

Some of Flynn's routings are unique, almost Merionesque, with crossovers, but somehow he seemed to make it work very well.   Do you think his routing ability was his greatest architectural talent ?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 08:49:05 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2005, 09:17:56 PM »
Patrick

I don't mind out and back, like TOC.  Something quite appealing about following your nose for many holes and then eventually turning around.  Quite different from turning around after each hole and seeing where you've just been.

RE: PVGC and 12-15.  Really I think the main problem  concerned what to do with the 14th and the pond.  Several interations of the 14th hole are apparent in the club's plans.  12 and 15 are pretty much as Colt routed.  The 13th was extended from his plan, and that in turn shifted the original par 3 14th to the peninsular green.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 09:22:44 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2005, 10:34:28 PM »
It is very much like sitting down at a restaurant and feeling something special in the air — the setting — the way the place is organized. Most times it will be difficult to place a finger on  what it is that makes the restaurant feel "right". Over analyzing won't help. Neither will studying the place while you're trying to enjoy it.

You need to come back and see it in the daylight. Without food in front of you. Without the clutter of other diners or employees. Look at the floor plan. The menu. The decor. Perhaps then you'll see a common thread evident from some other fine place.

And, Ed Galbavy, all you need to do is look at the walk from 14 to 15 at Cypress Point Club. Perhaps 150-yards, but it is among the (perhaps THE) best walks in golf...and nary a club or ball is played along it!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 10:37:35 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2005, 10:44:10 PM »
Ahhh...but is it difficult?

I would say, "yes". Some get it, some don't...architects, that is. The golfer always "gets" it. While it may not be tangible, it is part of the experience. In fact, it drives the experience atop anything besides the site itself.

It is difficult because of all the rules — and, as Brad points out, many of these rules are all but useless. It is made even harder by the constraints placed upon projects by environmental, financial and marketing influences. But these are not "new" influences, they are just more scientific today.

I really think a gift or routing begins with a natural ability to hold many, many thoughts in one's head at one time. Desmond Murihead once remarked to me, "The average person can not deal with 18-holes at one time...they can only think of a course hole-by-hole..." He went on to suggest that routing is a very high-level excercise; for one because it means so little until you consider the sum of parts all together — and secondly, because it requires the designer to think beyond golf and the way it unfolds in its natural state of play.

I regreat that Desmond is no longer with us. While he was not born in a world familiar with digital and connectivity, he surely would have — by now — been a contributor here. I beleive we all have lost a wonderful voice. There is hardly any topic worth my reply which would not be bettered by his advice, wisdom, insight and — certainly not least — his never-ending stream of sarcasm topped by wit.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 10:51:22 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Top100Guru

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2005, 10:53:06 PM »
Pat

One Routing I would consider to be out of sorts is Blackwolf Run River, and only becaue they combined 9's from Meadow Valleys and The River when the facility expanded to 36 holes....the original layout was pretty awesome...I played it when they first opened and you used to tee off across the Sheboygan river......too bad it is screwed up now....

JM

Mark Brown

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2005, 11:29:43 PM »
I think it's very easy to do a bad routing, particularly if you have a lot of significant changes in elevation. How much do you want to walk uphill, or like Fazio and many others you can use the cart paths to get to the top of the hills and eliminate uphill shots -- but then you can't walk the course.

At Sand Hills C&C had over 100 holes on their topo map and finally just decided to find a good place to start and do their best in choosing each succeeding hole with a goal of getting back to the clubhouse.

At Cuscowilla Coore spent many long days walking the property to maximizie the terrain. One question was should they cross the water (on the 10th hole). To their amazement they were allowed to build a bridge. Early on they considered a boat ride accross the river. Also he had to overcome the straight and even rows of specimen pines so it wouldn't look like a tree farm.

One of us could have really screwed up the routing which I believe Coore believes it's usually the most important part of the design.

One of my least favorite routings is Troon where you play the shorter front nine downwind and have to face the longer back nine into the wind. But it being a true links out and back they were somewhat limited. I just remeber shooting 37 on the front and 44 on the back.

"A well-executed routing is the heart and soul of every great golf course."  -- Steve Smyers.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 11:36:22 PM by Mark Brown »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2005, 07:29:31 AM »
As usual, Bob Crosby has nailed it. A routing is not natural - a good hole or a few green sites might be, but the key is puzzling out the connections. I suspect that few of the posters here have actually tried to route a golf course from scratch. It's a great exercise, and the balancing act among 457 variables is amazing. Plus some basic problem solving. I've worked at it many times and whenever I think I've resolved the issues and then I stand around and watch a real architect - like what Tim Liddy did at Wintonbury in Ct. - and I'm amazed. There are dozens of tricks about where to place the next tees in relation to the previous green, for examples. There are also many designers out there who do a routing regardless of basic topography and then just rely upon bulldozers to solve all of their problems.

At Wintonbury, for example, we had to deal with 91 acres of wetlands, a powerline down the middle, and getting returning nines back to one end of a narrow opening corridor. Dye/Liddy's design maanged to do all of this with total impact on wetlands of 1/4 acre, all while avoiding forced carries and moving only 230,000 cubic yards. When we were about to open, a wise local sports reporter noted how the last three holes all ran into the prevailing wind. "You must have been trying to create a really demanding finish," he said. "Actually," said Liddy, "we were trying to get back to the clubhouse."

Forrest Richardson is way too modest. Unlike some self-promotional folks here on this site (!), he fails to mention his own very perceptive book on this topic, "Routing the Golf Course: The Art and Science of the Golf Journey" (Wiley & Sons, 2002). I may have botched the title, but I'm in a hotel room working from memory.

In any case, I urge all of you to go out, get a site map, read the topography, walk it 100 times, and try your hand at a routing. You'll need a pencil sharpener and lots of erasers.

TEPaul, anyone who starts construction w/o a settled routing today is crazy. Did we mention the process of environmental permitting and local zoning approvals? It's a wonder any routing gets done at all. Don't underestimate the skill involved.  


« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 07:32:11 AM by Brad Klein »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2005, 08:24:34 AM »
Brad Klein,

I believe that famous landscape artist, Donald Ross, stated,
"One of the desirable shapes for a piece of golfing property is that of a fan. It gives you an opportunity to place your clubhouse at the handle of the fan and then lay out two loops of nine holes each on either side from it.

With respect to clubhouse location he said.
"... a clubhouse location in the center of a course is decidedly bad,while one on the edge has much in its favor."

Both statements by "THE DONALD" don't seem to be nonsense.

Common sense would also seem to indicate that NOT routing the first hole into the morning sun and the last hole into the setting sun isn't nonsensical as well.

As to elevated clubhouses, in my neck of the woods, Mountain Ridge, The Knoll, Essex County, Montclair, Glen Ridge, Essex Fells, Plainfield, Arcola, Hackensack, Baltusrol, Roxciticus, Crestmont, Cedar Hill, Forest Hills, Suburban, Spring Brook, Somerset Hills, Colonia, Forsgate, Metedeconk,
Manhattan Woods, are just a few with elevated clubhouses where the land has elevations to afford them.

While not in my neck of the woods, Meadow Brook, Augusta, Cypress Point, Southern Hills, Shinnecock and NGLA come to mind.  

While I haven't seen a clubhouse at Sebonack, I understand that they abandoned the stately mansion on the lower part of the property in favor of erecting it on one of the highest elevations on the property.

I never indicated that these conditions were rules or maxims, only patterns or guidelines which seem to be dictated by common sense when routing a golf course.

If those points were good enough for Donald Ross to commit to pen and paper, who am I to dispute them.

Before you go labeling something as "nonsense" perhaps a global review, rather than a specific review, would be in order. ;D

TEPaul

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2005, 08:30:29 AM »
"TEPaul, anyone who starts construction w/o a settled routing today is crazy. Did we mention the process of environmental permitting and local zoning approvals? It's a wonder any routing gets done at all. Don't underestimate the skill involved."

Brad:

Somewhere back in this thread I said that anyone who starts constructinng holes w/o a settled routing is crazy, in my opinion. It's not just a problem today, it would be a problem in any era. Such a modus operandi really is potentially "constructing yourself into a box or into a corner". This is precisely what George Crump did to some extent or degree and it is also obviously why there are all kinds of routing lines all over the place on the back nine of PVGC, particularly holes #12-15. In my opinion, it's also part of the reason the final four holes to come into play (12-15) did so app 5-6 years after the last of the others (#11, 16, 17) were brought into play. Obviously there're other reasons those holes took so long to finish--eg WW1, the fact the course could be played as an 18 by replaying 1-4 and the fact that Crump died, his purse was gone, and the club wasn't sure how to proceed and finish the course off for a few years.

But the fact is Crump constructed way too many holes before finalizing the last few in a routing sense. Why did he do that? Probably because in the 1912-1913 he was very inexperienced (never did a course before) and he was undeniably a man who's modus operandi out there for 5-6 years was to constantly change things.

Crump and the course got lucky though, as in the end holes 12-15 worked out just fine!

PaulT:

My sense is that Colt didn't come anywhere near where #13 green and #14 tee and #15 tee is today. Colt's blue lines for #13 and his green site for that hole (the roman numeraled greens) stop perhaps 200 yards short of where the green is today and it's clear on the topo that green was X-out by Crump. His green site for that hole is right in today's fairway LZ just over what's now known as "Holman's Hollow". Colt's tee for #13 is far out to the right of where #12 green is today and behind it, somewhere in the present maintenance area. Colt's green on #12 is not in the same place as it is today and his tee on #12 is just short and very close to #11 green down under the ridge. There was no "delayed" dogleg" to #12 as the hole is today. One can then see that Colt's 14th tee is on the edge of that ridge (the LZ of today's #13) with probably a par 3 down to where the beginning of the fairway on #15 is today. From there Colt does have a 15th hole to a green site where it is today but what would that hole have been---a long par 4 or a short par 5? One has to think of what the par sequences were in Crump's mind in that area when they were out there. Where was the second par 5 going to be and such? It's well known that Crump had a very active thought of turning #16 into a par 5 by extending the green out to the peninsula behind where #14 green is today and that's why #17 on Crump's routing (and his own hole drawing that landed in a local newspaper) was considerably longer than what it is today.

Although we'll obviously never completely know who came up with what when they were there together for that week or so Colt was there in June 1913 (neither apparently kept any notes) I have a hunch that the best indication of how they may've been working together is what we can see on #7, #8, #9. Crump initially (on the first topo) had green #7 where it is today. We can see Colt had a green for that hole about 130 yards short and left of where it is and directly in the line of the tee shot on today's #8. But it's almost impossible to tell where Crump's #8 was going on that first topo. However, we do see Colt's blue lines that appear to be almost exactly what that hole is today. So that would indicate to me that Crump told Colt that they were going with his green site on #7 and not Colt's thereby allowing them to route #8 the way it is now(otherwise the tee shot on #8 would play directly over Colt's #7 green!). For some reason I have a hunch that #9 as it is today is perhaps the purist hole from any of Colt's ideas on routing or hole design (bunkers etc) on today's golf course. Of course we do have two identical remarks from both Carr and Smith from the "remembrances" that Crump had every intention of turning #9 into a dogleg left. But he died before he could get to that.



« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 09:12:04 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2005, 08:35:59 AM »
Forest Richardson,

Then you would agree, that it's an innate talent.

To those who don't possess it, can it be acquired ?

And, can it ever be acquired to the level of those who have that talent, inherently ?

Having asked those questions, it doesn't seem like there are that many golf courses with BAD routings.  Could the routing of a given course be better, possibly, but, that doesn't mean that the routing is BAD.

So, if of all the thousands and thousands of golf courses, there is only a small percentage of golf courses with admitedly BAD routings, does that speak to the game of golf itself, back to its origins when golfers played from point A to a hole, and then, from that hole, to the next.

At it's origins, GOLF had no tee other then the first tee.

After holing out, a golfer teed his ball within one club length of the hole and played on.  It took about a century or two before that distance was increased to two club lengths.

So, does the game inherently overcome bad routing ?

TEPaul,

Donald Ross's chapter entitled "Design on Land, Not on Paper" in his book "Golf has Never Failed Me" is quite interesting.

He indicates that two days or more of walking the land is sufficient time to "grasp" the needs and opportunities provided by the land.

This would seem to indicate that he possessed that innate talent to route, and that he relagated putting pen to paper behind personal intimacy with the land.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 08:44:23 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

TEPaul

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2005, 09:24:00 AM »
Pat:

If you ask me Ross said a number of things he didn't do or didn't follow. He said he didn't believe in designing holes with blind green surfaces but he sure did build a bunch of them. I think facts and history indicate pretty clearly that Donald Ross routed a pretty good number of golf courses on sites he never laid eyes on either before the course was routed or after it was built.

One needs to remember that the words in that book that really are Ross's (it's extremely hard to near impossible to tell in that book which words were actually Ross's and which are Whitten's) were written in app 1913 or 1914 and so there is every opportunity that Ross may not have ended up doing precisely what he wrote in 1913-14. Don't forget the man did get incredibly busy with something like 26 course in one year alone!

I believe, and have told Brad Klein a number of times, that I think Ross routing generally show a very identifiable style or modus operandi of high tee sites, valleys and high green sites. Once Ross maxed a site out with those holes he probably just connected the rest with whatever the land gave him. It seems to me Ross found high tees and high green sites on topos by simply counting up the elevation lines and postioning tees and greens on the high ones.

I feel because of his high production Ross may've become one of the best "Topo routers" ever in the early days at least.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 09:25:23 AM by TEPaul »

Jari Rasinkangas

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2005, 09:50:45 AM »
Patrick,

On my opinion routing is an innate talent like the talent of navigation some people have.  Some get lost very easily even in a city with a map.  The others can walk in the woods and always get back without any problems.

Routing to me resembles the sport of navigation called orienteering where each athlete gets a topographic map where the route is marked.  You can also use compass for navigation but nowadays they use much more topo than compass.  The basic idea in orienteering is to get as fast as possible from start to finish by reading the map and using the topo to evaluate the fastest route.

The best athletes in this sport learn the map quickly when they get it and do not have to look at it all the time when running.

See link http://www.us.orienteering.org/ for more info.

In routing it helps tremendously if you have this kind of talent.  Just by a quick look at the topo you can "load" a 3D map in your head and start walking the land.

Jari

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2005, 09:50:48 AM »
Pat -

Yes, golf is such an extraordinary thing that just the pleasure of playing means you will often overlook bad routings.

I mean, if my choice is to play golf on a lousy track or not to play golf at all, the choice will always be to play.

But that doesn't mean there aren't such things as lousy tracks.

Bob
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 11:08:14 AM by BCrosby »

TEPaul

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2005, 10:05:59 AM »
I spent a number of days once on a beautful site with Bill Coore looking for a routing. He eventually described the site as "instant maturity" although relatively complex. I shouldn't admit this but as we walked the land scouting hole sites occasionally Bill would pull out of his pocket one of a number of little paper cut-out holes that actually had things like hinges in the middle of some of the longer ones and he would place them on the topo and move them around. When I asked him what he was doing he said---"nothing really, it's just one of the ways I measure certain things." The cut-outs obviously pertained to certain lengths of holes and that was his way of measuring certain possibilities, I guess. I spent hundreds of hours on that site--I didn't have any little paper hole cut-outs but my little six inch ruler sure did get a workout.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 10:07:47 AM by TEPaul »

CHrisB

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2005, 11:01:28 AM »
Chris Brauner,

Is all the land at Spyglass on the sandy, ocean front, or does it move up into the forests ?  ?    ?     ?

Could they have fitted all 18 holes into the land that's adjacent to the ocean and ocean views ?   ?  ?

Patrick Mucci,

Not all of the land at Spyglass is on the sandy ocean front, and yes, it moves up into the forest. They could not have fit all 18 holes into the land adjacent to the ocean.

If your questions are meant to defend the routing at Spyglass, then they don't quite do it for me. It is still a questionable routing in my mind, for the reasons I stated earlier, although I don't know what the alternatives might have been.

What is your evaluation of the routing at Spyglass?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2005, 07:24:24 PM »
BCrosby,

A lousy track may not be the fault of the routing.
It could be the fault of the individual holes.

Some might say that the holes are a by-product of the routing, but, there's no guarantee that an alternate routing would have produced an improvement in the holes.

In my limited experience, I don't believe that I've come across 5 golf courses that could be considered to have BAD routing.

When I asked the question about the routing at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, in the context of the long walks, everyone was conspicuously silent.

One has to wonder, how objective can this group be ?

At least Brad Klein named courses that he felf suffered BAD routings, most others seemed to confine their experiences in vague, non-specific terms.

Chris Brauner,

It's an interesting question.

I've often wondered, if the course played in reverse, finishing on the coast, if it would have been better received or at least perceived as more memorable.  That stretch of the first five holes is a great stretch of holes.

The land is what it is.
Only a fixed number of holes can fit into the coastal area, and then the balance of the holes must fit into the balance of the property.

It's interesting that you didn't voice the same objection to Cypress Point, a golf course that weaves its way throough the forest and finishes on the coast.

Again, there's only so much coastal land and I don't think the holes that occupy that land at Spyglass are inferior holes.

It's interesting that some will criticize an architect for building back to back par 3's to make his routing work, but noone seems to object to MacKenzie's work at Cypress or Doaks work at Pacific.  The same can be said of back to back par 5's, but Ross and AWT used them at Seminole and Baltusrol, a fact conveniently overlooked.

Shivas,

I found your criticism of Medinah interesting.

Interesting in the context of the use of the ocean at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, two adjacent golf courses that use the ocean differently.

Is Bandon routed poorly ?
Is Pacific routed poorly ?

They use the same hazard differently,  but successfully in their own way or design style.

How many times has Medinah been routed ?

Which one did you like best and why ?

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2005, 07:40:30 PM »
I’m not going to write a thesis.

The enemy of routing is compromise & laziness.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2005, 07:57:23 PM »
Tom

I agree with most of your analysis.  However the essential routing of 12 and 15 are as Colt drew.  It's difficult to discern the 12th fully, the length and direction of the hole is correct as Colt drew.  But the green orientation may well be different; the booklet would shed light.  Colt's and appears to be less certain for the 12th and 13th holes, it's more of a stick diagram than a fully fleshed hole like the others.  Again the booklet would shed a lot of light.

In 1913, wouldn't Colt's 15th would still be a three shotter, even without the lake carry?

Look closer at the stick map (zoom in).  The holes are all numbered and sequenced; a full 18.  The current 8th is not shown at all.  The 8th hole labelled on the stick map is a hole with a green site at the current 6th.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song