Pretty humorous that Tom Doak of all people started this thread.  Isn't he the one architect that has used this website to promote himself and his work more than any other architect?  In fact, he pretty much acknowledges his "status" on this website when he writes:  "And don't base your response on how you'd feel if it was me; try to set a standard that you'd hold for Donald Trump, too."
 
 Talk about the Pot calling the Kettle black!!  Geez!!    

Tom,
It appears to me your stretching the point quite a bit here (and for what purpose?).  
 
Tim Liddy's post attempted to take the thread in question off topic by questioning the role of writers and others in the marketing process. Which of course is quite funny considering what his (err, Pete Dye's) Wintonbury Hills project has received thanks in part to Dr. Klein's involvement.
 
Regarding the membership sales issue, someone asked what it cost and I posted a reply to that. Was that self promotion and sales? Did that cross a line into sales that you found so unbearable that it required this thread to delve into this all important subject? If someone asked what the green fee would be at one of your courses or how to get there or what how long it takes to fly to Tasmania, and you replied, somehow I don't think you'd feel that's crossing a line. I certainly would not feel that way.
 
Geoff

Now that Tom Doak has become so popular and is being forced into the mainstream I'd like to ask: Who assumes the mantle of "Maverick"?

Geoff:

If you noticed, I started a separate thread here to wonder at what point salesmanship of projects-to-be should not be permitted on this site.  I made it separate precisely so it wouldn't be about your job or my job or anyone's.  And I didn't say you had crossed any lines.

I'm surprised by the response so far; other than Mr. Tillinghast (?) who is sarcastically making the point that he thinks I cross the line, everyone has pretty much said they want to hear all about these projects from the architect or developer, no matter what stage they are at.

Best wishes to you and Gil in Nebraska; are you starting in the spring?

Myself, I call salesmanship the process of getting the project signed.  I don't think many talk about their work until they know it is a signed deal that cannot be stolen.
After you have the deal then any promotion efforts either fall into PR or advertising.  Anything on this site is strictly PR.  It can be in the form of promoting the architect or the project.  And it can be dangerous....some clients may not want it...
But I don't see anything wrong with it if anyone wishes to participate in that manner....

Tom,
  Why are you "suprised by the response so far"?

I read Tom's original post as where would the treehouse want him to draw the line, not that someone else has crossed one.

Unobjectively speaking of course.

Cheers

In my view, this question goes to a fundamental issue that underlies many uses of the web.  The web loses much of its value to me when it becomes like other media outlets and merely an advertising vehicle rather than a useful information source.

I think the concern is legitimate.  For examply, originally, I thought Golf Digest's Places to Play was a good source for the general public's perceptions of courses.  While I disagreed with many of the ratings, I thought there was a general integrity to them.  I think the guide has become largely useless over time and the ratings have all become artificially inflated.  I've always assumed (without knowing) that the change was due to ballot stuffing efforts.

Based on what I have seen, this site is nowhere near the point where it raises a concern about whether it has become an advertising vehicle.  It is clear that there is some promotion taking place, but as long as it is combined with useful information and there is opportunity for others to disagree and for others to respectfully point out promotion when it undermines the usefulness of information, I would rather err on the side of more information rather than less.

 

Good post George!

As it turns out and as a result of this thread there're a lot of things I'd like to hear from Tom Doak (and others in the business) on this very subject of "Enthusiasm vs salesmanship".

Tom Doak on here did mention himself as a comparison to Donald Trump. That thought right there frankly interests me. I look at Donald Trump (and have for years) as a true American curiosity. The Donald isn't the antiChrist to me in golf architecture or anything else he's ever done. I say that because I firmly believe (and have for years) that Trump probably understands the complete spectrum of feelings and reactions to his style and personality, his personal business style, even his incredible hair etc as well as anyone. Somewhere I've got to believe that Trump probably doesn't take that persona as seriously as most think he does. To him, at least at this point, he probably understands that outrageous persona alone has turned into a real asset, perhaps one of the most effective sales tools imaginable. Hence the instant popularity of this television show of his.

In that way Trump is probably the modern day P.T. Barnum except on a much grander scale. But the reason I mention this is obviously Doak feels a guy like Trump, and in what he's done and continues to do in golf architecture (and clubs) alone, is probably the best example of the most effective salesman and self promotion imaginable. I mention all this simply because in my opinion, despite what a salesman and self promoter Trump may be I have the distinct feeling that his basic product of incredible excess in clubs and their architecture is winding to an end. I feel that the age of real "anti-excess" in golf clubs and in golf architecture is probably upon us and that's very interesting to me because frankly that side of the type and style of golf architecture is where Tom Doak is and would like to continue to be. At least that's the impression I've always gotten from Tom Doak.

So I'd love to hear Tom Doak tell us all what he thinks the ideal level of enthusiasm or salesmanship should be these days on this website or anywhere else for that matter. And also what he thinks about the idea that perhaps the age of "Excess" in golf architecture and related issues really is winding down and the age of "anti-excess" just may be on the rise---perhaps even on a steep rise!

Would there be any harm done or impropriety committed if Tom Doak would post detailed information on the Harmony Club, even if his intent was solely to spark interest in the project and help the developer reach critical mass?  Personally, as long as the information is accurate and not boastful, I think that it would be a good thing.

Personally, I enjoy someone's enthusiasm for a project.  Is it salesmanship?  Who cares!?! I am old enough  and experienced enough to sort out the wheat from the chaff.  One of my favorite places to visit is the European Club and Pat and Gerry Ruddy.  Pat has been dealt a Royal Flush in the poker hand of enthusiasm and salesmanship.  I love walking the course with him.  Does he cross the line of good taste and discretion.  Probably, but it is all in fun and the club is his life's work and legacy.  So bring it on.  I would much rather read about someone's project they love than some of the childish arguments that periodically take up spce on this site.

I think the standards on this site are very loose and so far it has worked well for the site.  Tom, I know you asked this question generally, but you have stated a particular example which you feel uncomfortable with and thought to use it as an example.  In that particular case, it seems to me, you need to discuss your concerns with the developer or group who hired you.  In future, if you feel strongly about keeping promotion out of your responsibility, you should be up front with your developer prior to accepting the project.  This may have negative repercussions, but at least you wont have the same dilemma.

   If someone is writing a check that I'm cashing , I sell the hell out of it....enthusiastically.
 or I don't take a check if I'm not comfortable with the deal.
 or I stop accepting a check if I feel compromised.

....its really not that complicated.