Pls help me understand

« **Reply #25 on:** December 03, 2004, 02:49:53 PM »

Ted

I have played PH about 10 times. If it were more geographically convenient for me, I would join. I have been there with members of other private clubs in the area and they were impressed. Of course, the visuals there are outstanding. The clubhouse is top notch. So what if the greens lack character? If the greens were severe there the slope rating would be in the 140s. My only concern, if I were a member there, would be that membership might never sell out and the course would be semi-private ad infinitum. How are memberships selling?

It is certainly not unusual for a private club that allows unaccompanied play to charge considerably more than accompanied guest play. What's the issue?

Steve

« **Reply #26 on:** December 03, 2004, 03:04:07 PM »

Quote from: Steve_ Shaffer on December 03, 2004, 02:49:53 PM

Ted

I have played PH about 10 times. If it were more geographically convenient for me, I would join. I have been there with members of other private clubs in the area and they were impressed. Of course, the visuals there are outstanding. The clubhouse is top notch. So what if the greens lack character? If the greens were severe there the slope rating would be in the 140s. My only concern, if I were a member there, would be that membership might never sell out and the course would be semi-private ad infinitum. How are memberships selling?

It is certainly not unusual for a private club that allows unaccompanied play to charge considerably more than accompanied guest play. What's the issue?

Steve

I think memberships are selling reasonably well.
People at the club are saying that we should be fully private at some point within the next 2 years. I hope that they are right.

-Ted

« **Reply #27 on:** December 03, 2004, 03:12:13 PM »

Ted -

If it seems people are slow responding, understand that we've been Fazio bashing and bashing Fazio bashers for several years now. Also, in actuality, this thread is growing rather quickly.

My advice would be to go back and read the older comments of redanman, Mike C and Matt Ward, as well as a few others, if you truly want to know what others think of Pine Hill. Try to ignore Barney's tossing gas on the fire, too. There is plenty written that is worth reading.

As an aside, there is nothing wrong with a club offering different rates, nor is there any hypocrisy in someone who played for free opining that a course is overpriced relative to its merits. Mike's paid for plenty of golf and is more than capable of giving an opinion as to what a course is worth, regardless of anyone else's opinion of him.

-----
Whatever happened at the Fazio Society's first annual meeting? Wasn't it this past fall?

« **Reply #28 on:** December 03, 2004, 03:17:29 PM »

Quote from: George Pazin on December 03, 2004, 03:12:13 PM

Whatever happened at the Fazio Society's first annual meeting? Wasn't it this past fall?

This was canceled due to the conflict with the Cuscowilla outing....if you want to talk about price....if I was a member of Cuscowilla I would think it is way too cheap....That course is too good for cottage, caddie and golf to be $100 a night...best deal in the country for a non-member..

« **Reply #29 on:** December 03, 2004, 03:35:28 PM »

I'm very familiar with the course. Because we only have about a 160 yd range at Tavistock, I do most of my practice at the range there at PH.

My few complaints about Pine Hill would include:

1. Very poor routing from a "walkers" perspective.
2. Green designs lack interest for me.
3. My biggest pet peeve is the "Grass/Mess" that surrounds all the bunkers. I think the bunkers are enough of a penalty. The high grass-scrub-surrounds are just too severe. During this year's US Open qualifier, I member of my group LOST his golf ball about 1 yard off the right side of the green in the "junk" that surrounds the bunker slope. I'm all for deep punishing bunkers, but the double hazard that exists at Pine Hill is just too much. Although I ended up finding my ball after about a 3 min. search, I had the same instance happen to me about 2 steps off the right edge of the green on #10.

« **Reply #30 on:** December 03, 2004, 03:38:17 PM »

Pine Hill is $10K to join, $5K at application and $5K after 1 year. Doesn't seem too bad for the Philly area. No mention of the dues on the web site.

French Creek also has a reasonable initiation fee, although it's the monthly dues where they get you! (

for Dan and Eric)

Quote from: Steve_ Shaffer on December 03, 2004, 02:49:53 PM

If the greens were severe there the slope rating would be in the 140s.

The slope from the tips is already 140.

Quote from: John B. Kavanaugh on December 03, 2004, 03:17:29 PM

Quote from: George Pazin on December 03, 2004, 03:12:13 PM

Whatever happened at the Fazio Society's first annual meeting? Wasn't it this past fall?

This was canceled due to the conflict with the Cuscowilla outing

Not too early to start thinking of a date for 2005. Name a date and let other outings work around it. Screw college football schedules, if people can't make it, they can't make it.

« **Reply #31 on:** December 03, 2004, 03:52:48 PM »

Ted,

Don't worry about the routing...the posters on this board slam Kapalua for the same reasons.

« **Reply #32 on:** December 03, 2004, 04:00:10 PM »

Scott

I don't play from the tips.

I meant that the slope from the blue or even whites would be in the 140s. Who needs that on an everyday basis? Not moi.

Steve

« **Reply #33 on:** December 03, 2004, 04:09:55 PM »

I have only played it once, this past spring after playing Pine Valley for two days. Certainly comparing the two is absurd, but I liked the course OK. I don't remember the greens very much, which mightaccount for them being classified as uninteresting. I haven't played that many of Fazio's designs, but I belong to one (Aldarra) that has very interesting, tricky greens that are what makes the course difficult....My guess is that Fazio often does what the people commissioning him to do his courses want him to do, in terms of green difficulty....

« **Reply #34 on:** December 03, 2004, 04:44:05 PM »

Mike Cirba,

Why would price have anything to do with the architecture ?

Is that the context in which you view and judge Friar's Head ?

How about Sebonack.

The architecture should stand on its own and not be comingled with extraneous issues.

« **Reply #35 on:** December 03, 2004, 04:45:05 PM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on December 03, 2004, 04:44:05 PM

The architecture should stand on its own and not be comingled with extraneous issues.

Why?

« **Reply #36 on:** December 03, 2004, 04:48:52 PM »

Quote from: Steve_ Shaffer on December 03, 2004, 02:49:53 PM

My only concern, if I were a member there, would be that membership might never sell out and the course would be semi-private ad infinitum.

Completely sincere question, from someone who's never been a member of any club:

Why would that be a concern?

« **Reply #37 on:** December 03, 2004, 04:51:53 PM »

Quote from: Dan Kelly on December 03, 2004, 04:48:52 PM

Quote from: Steve_ Shaffer on December 03, 2004, 02:49:53 PM
My only concern, if I were a member there, would be that membership might never sell out and the course would be semi-private ad infinitum.

Completely sincere question, from someone who's never been a member of any club:

Why would that be a concern?

Semi-private means competition for tee times with the general public, less chance of just showing up and walking on, etc. If I were a member of a club on its way to becoming private, of course it's caveat emptor when joining.. but I'd sure prefer fully-private to semi, that is unless it made my costs jump too much. But costs would be weighed against all other things anyway.

But darn you Kelly, just when I gave Pat Mucci a Mucci-esque post back at him, you have to step in and now he'll likely never see it.

« **Reply #38 on:** December 03, 2004, 04:52:41 PM »

Quote from: Dan Kelly on December 03, 2004, 04:48:52 PM

Quote from: Steve_ Shaffer on December 03, 2004, 02:49:53 PM
My only concern, if I were a member there, would be that membership might never sell out and the course would be semi-private ad infinitum.

Completely sincere question, from someone who's never been a member of any club:

Why would that be a concern?

The members treat the course properly, they care about it in a way the general public doesn't.

The members tend to play a little quicker, they don't want to be labeled as "the slow guys".

The course will be much less crowded when it is fully private.

I really don't want to pay a bunch of $$ to "belong" to a public course.

-Ted

« **Reply #39 on:** December 03, 2004, 05:04:47 PM »

Quote from: DaveSchmidt on December 03, 2004, 04:59:06 PM

Ted, what's the deal there? Is it the standard deal where the members get to make their tee times 2 weeks in advance and the public can take what's left 1 week in advance? Or is it some other system.

This sort of goes to the discussion Pat M and I were having a few weeks ago about private clubs opening up an hour a day or whatever, but in reverse. I like the way Pasatiempo does it (I think)-- private till noon or 1 pm or whatever on weekends and at other key times (noon till 2 or whatever on weekdays)(ie, just show up) and open to the public at other times, probably with members having first crack at them.

All tee times before 10a are reserved for members who can make tee times 2 weeks in advance. But if you're a member you don't really need a tee time, if you just show up early you can get out. After 10a the tee times are open to the public.

-Ted

« **Reply #40 on:** December 03, 2004, 05:07:15 PM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on December 03, 2004, 04:45:05 PM

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on December 03, 2004, 04:44:05 PM
The architecture should stand on its own and not be comingled with extraneous issues.

Why?

Tell him, Patrick.

« **Reply #41 on:** December 03, 2004, 05:12:18 PM »

Dan,

I have heard that Friars Head is too difficult of a drive from the city to justify the cost of the membership....typical cocktail chatter in Southern Illinois....should this be a knock on the course..

« **Reply #42 on:** December 03, 2004, 05:27:46 PM »

Quote from: John B. Kavanaugh on December 03, 2004, 05:12:18 PM

....should this be a knock on the course..

Well, sure, if they don't have a chopper pad.

« **Reply #43 on:** December 03, 2004, 05:32:49 PM »

Dan.... do you realize that the rater core of 1,000 raters in the United States receive approximately $1,000,000 in comped green fees per year.....with that money we could buy 250 hours of NetJets usage and this problem would be moot...

« **Reply #44 on:** December 05, 2004, 06:38:14 PM »

Thanks for the responses guys.

If any of you in the area, or travelling to the area, would like to check out Pine Hill and tee it up, just let me know, it would be my pleasure.

-Ted

« **Reply #45 on:** December 05, 2004, 07:27:00 PM »

John, the more standard rate at Cuscowilla is $175 / night for shared bedroom, green fee and caddy/cart fee. Still a wonderful deal. We got the $99 rate because of GCA's influence on modern golf architecture.

I don't know why private golf clubs have to have tee times at all. Maybe it's just a southern thing. At Pensacola CC, no tee times. Yesterday I was over in Hattiesburg to see Cal win vs Southern Miss (and still get screwed out of the Rose Bowl

) and met a guy at the tailgate area who is a member of Hattiesburg CC. Same deal, just show up and play. Everybody knows when the regular dog fight games are and when couples play, etc. I've always felt strict tee times for private clubs are for the convenience and benefit of the staff rather than the members.

« **Reply #46 on:** December 05, 2004, 07:50:57 PM »

Bill,

I thought we got the winter rate just a bit early because of the size of out group and your skill as a negotiator....If it was a comp that had anything to do with this group I need to rethink my public position on the course...

« **Reply #47 on:** December 05, 2004, 07:59:24 PM »

Just kidding............

« **Reply #48 on:** December 05, 2004, 08:02:38 PM »

Patrick/John;

You're right. Price should not be comingled with architecture. I just found their asking price a bit much for what they offered...I found it a little like ripping the average guy by telling him they were giving him a Pine Valley experience.

Being an average guy myself who's been fortunate to have played some pretty incredible places, I found it a bit much.

« **Reply #49 on:** December 05, 2004, 08:03:06 PM »

Bill,

Thank God...because my accountant has told me that I need to declare my comps as ordinary income...

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