Why is Pete Dye only tolerated at best on this board...

« **Reply #25 on:** November 30, 2004, 08:48:49 PM »

One of the things Pete didn't invent but may've virtually perfected in his modern age niche is the incredibly razor thin "margin for error" but only if one chose to "go there", and that alone may've pissed a lot of people off and made a lot of what he did, as well as his reputation, controversial (ultimately probably the thing that made him really famous!).

Pete's use of the second-half 20th century architectural staple---the diagonal, is brilliant. His use of reapplied "rudimentariness" with both materials and "look" was also both hallmark and curious. Pete may go down someday as the best there ever was in architecture for seducing, testing and probably punishing the "overreacher" whether hacker, middle level player or top-notch touring pro.

« **Reply #26 on:** November 30, 2004, 09:30:42 PM »

WHY??

SAME REASON WHY GENERALIZATIONS OR SPAGHETTI DON"T STICK VERY LONG TO THE WALL.

« **Reply #27 on:** December 01, 2004, 03:13:55 AM »

Steve Lang,

The secret ..... is in the sauce.

Just ask Tommy Naccarato.

Jaka B,

When I first came on GCA.com Pete was not well thought of, but, as time has gone by, I think his work has become more appreciated, but not widely accepted.

Pete's work in the 60's was a radical departure from what was going on in the golf world at the time.
Pete reintroduced elements of Scottish golf, sleepers, mounding, etc., etc.. He also reintroduced more penal features, and, he wanted to test the best players in the world when and where the opportunity arose.

One should not confine their examination of Pete's work to the golf courses he designed.
Like the legendary Paul Brown, one should look at his disciples, the architects he produced, their work, and their impact on American golf along with his.

He may be one of THE most important American architects of the 20th century.

« **Reply #28 on:** December 01, 2004, 08:05:19 AM »

"One should not confine their examination of Pete's work to the golf courses he designed.
Like the legendary Paul Brown, one should look at his disciples, the architects he produced, their work, and their impact on American golf along with his."

Pat:

That's an interesting point. Pete Dye's so-called disciples are an interesting and impressive group but what they do seems to me to be a pretty far departure from Pete, certainly in many ways but perhaps not in all. Tom Doak is obviously the best candidate on here to explain if that's true or not and both how and why!

« **Reply #29 on:** December 01, 2004, 10:50:10 AM »

Why?

Because Pete Dye will move a mountain and brag about it. Most of the minimalists lie about it.

« **Reply #30 on:** December 02, 2004, 02:23:58 AM »

Because only a few posters on this site have played the Dye Fore, its impact on the future of architecture is not yet understood. When I return from my honeymoon my wife and I with Tommy's help will post pictures of every hole. The pictures will give a good visual, but miss the ground features. In some ways, Pete may have been reading a great deal of the posts on this sight. The Dye Fore is an easy bogey, hard par, difficult birdie course. Tom McWood needs to play this because it is all about the angles. There are only 2 fairways narrower than 60 yards! For optimum play, they are US Open narrow--the greens are super firm--pretty much PGA Tour firmness. This course does have bailout and recovery. Most importantly, this course handles all skill levels well and at 7700 from the back will handle the 325 average drive. The full page ad appearing in most of the golf magazines does show some of the shaping and the runway tee he included. If Dye Courses are too tough--they are victims of poor set-ups--PGA West in 1986 was not ready for a tournament (not fully grown in grass and grainy immature grass on the greens). More than half the field today bettered par. PGA West can be very tough, but it is completely fair--the same can be said about Sawgrass--these courses were built to tournament test world class players. The Disney course may not be great, but it was the group favorite in the Olds and Buick scrambles. Is Pebble Beach better than Teeth of the Dog? If so why?

« **Reply #31 on:** December 02, 2004, 06:42:27 AM »

Teeth of the Dog was on Wonderful World of Golf last night on TGC. Looks like a wonderful place. At least for the show, he called it his "baby" and seemed very appreciative to work on that land.

« **Reply #32 on:** December 02, 2004, 08:00:43 AM »

Mike

Sorry for the slow reply, but I'v been away from the site for a while.

Yes, the Ocean Course was under construction, but Henry Terrie got me and my wife an invitation to play. We stayed at the Inn that night.

As I recall, the green fee was also under construction.

Willie

« **Reply #33 on:** December 02, 2004, 08:34:35 AM »

Robert
When weren't angles important to design? I recently completed research on Tom Simpson and he relied almost exclusively on angles...orientation of fairways and greens...to the point where he felt there was a need for a minimal number of bunkers.

I haven't played Dye Fore, how would you compare it The Golf Club or Long Cove or Casa de Campo?

« **Reply #34 on:** December 02, 2004, 09:45:14 AM »

I'm going to Casa De Campo later this month on a cruise and only have time to play one course so we are playing Teeth. However, I was told by someone at my club who isn't neccesarily into architecture but likes good golf courses that "Dye Fore blows away Teeth of the Dog". SO if anyone has played it can you tell us if it really was that great. I get the feeling that the reason he liked it so much was because of the elevation and the views, which compared to teeth which is played right at sea level.

Jason

« **Reply #35 on:** December 02, 2004, 10:40:05 AM »

I spend two months at Casa de Campo and play Teeth, Dye Fore and La Romana CC a lot. Teeth is still my favorite, although Dye Fore is one great 4 hours. As for the Teeth, there's no substituting the sea. The 7 sea holes are to die for, and the inland holes are better than Pebble's. Only #'s 4, 9 and 11 are arguably mundane. I'll take the Teeth over Pebble every time. Pebble's 8th may be the best hole in the world, but after that the Teeth's sea holes are as good or better.
Dye Fore is terrific. Robert's observation that the wide fairways aren't as wide as they appear if you want to leave yourself the preferred shot is right on. The green complexes are challenging and interesting, and the views are incredible. The course must sit on 300 acres.
If I only had one round to play, I'd play the Teeth. But I'd try to squeeze in a second if at all possible.

« **Reply #36 on:** December 02, 2004, 11:04:51 AM »

Pete Dye CHANGED the nature / focus of modern design. IMHO he is responsible for a movement away from the dreadful bigger is beautiful designs that dominated the 50's and 60's.

Pete Dye re-introduced certain concepts into the game that were abandoned by a good many people practicing in the field.

Pete said it himself -- when people like Trent Jones were moving towards the bigger and bigger style he went the other way with smaller greens and inventful holes that required more than simply muscle.

In my mind, he is without question one of the all-time
greats -- the most influential designer for the 2nd half of the 20th century. His desire to bring back into the game a number of unique and fascinating design concepts is part of that appeal and how others who previously worked for him have used from time to time in their own designs.

Part of the issue many here have with Pete Dye is that a number of his courses don't suffer fools quite so readily. Frankly, much of the disdain some have for his work is really self-generated by the beating their own ego gets when playing a number of his top tier layouts. Likely, from the wrong tee markers!

When one sizes up the quality works Pete has done and what he has INFLUENCED his record and standing are simply first class.

The Golf Club
Teeth of the Dog
TPC / Sawgrass
Harbour Town
Whistling Straits / Straits Course
Pete Dye GC
The Ocean Course
Blackwolf Run (River)
PGA West / Stadium
Long Cove

« **Reply #37 on:** December 02, 2004, 11:07:24 AM »

Dye's courses are a great setup for high-pressure events. Just look at the difference in the q-school events at PGA West and Orange County National. Having played both there is no question I would pay to love to see a player need to stay even on #16-18 at PGA West vs. OCN. His setups really maximize the drama and make for good TV.

Funny thing about Eagle Pines at Disney...when Dye first built the course, he spent a painstaking amount of time installing pine-straw rough areas. Its current setup is nothing like Dye's original design.

« **Reply #38 on:** December 02, 2004, 11:08:46 AM »

And let's not forget that he can build a quality course without a big budget...one just needs to pay $16 or so to play Oak Hollow in NC to see that.

« **Reply #39 on:** December 02, 2004, 09:07:49 PM »

Pete

I think that was just about what I paid for green fees at The Ocean Course ! Mike, check your records.

In any event, it was a day well spent ! What a great course !

Not to say that the cost of golf has gone up, but supply and demand will get to an equitable relationship.

Forget the demand created by another Ryder Cup, or what ever.

Willi

« **Reply #40 on:** December 03, 2004, 02:42:56 AM »

The Casa de Campo experience is like playing Pebble Beach and Cypress Point. I really think Teeth of the Dog is superior to Pebble. I enjoy its "mundane" holes more than Pebble's 1st, 12th, and 15th. I really think the Dye Fore is the course that should be getting the attention of the international design community. Completely lacking in sand dunes, dramatic water holes, and fescue; it is a strikingly beautiful course--the magazines simply have not found the money shot that every Fazio, Jones, and Nicklaus course seems to have today. I cannot wait to play there again on Dec. 14th. The Casa de Campo experience (golf wise--though it is Pebble' resort equal)creates good daydreams just like the Pebble/Cypress/Spyglass/ MPCC courses when anticipating a visit. This is an intangible that is worthy of consideration.

« **Reply #41 on:** December 03, 2004, 02:49:32 AM »

The Straits course got all the rave reviews this summer. The other 3 are not too shabby. I think the River course is a masterpiece. The Irish may also be in that category, though the finish may be a little weak--I would not put it past Pete to rectify the finish.

« **Reply #42 on:** December 03, 2004, 01:05:19 PM »

Jim Coleman.....you spoke of teeth and Dye fore but didn't give your opinion of La Romana....

When I was down in Casa de Campo several years ago, I played both and with the exception of the ocean setting thought La Romana was a better set of golf holes.

Comments?

« **Reply #43 on:** December 03, 2004, 02:19:24 PM »

Having "only" played Whistling Straits, The Honors Course and TPC Sawgrass I am blown away by the quality of the shaping, particularly around the greens, exhibited in his work. Not "natural" by any means - simply spectacular.

Watching SWWOG at Teeth Of The Dog a few evenings ago, I could not help but wondering: Where would in rank on Golfweek's modern U. S. list?

The man's a genius in my book.

Mike

« **Reply #44 on:** December 03, 2004, 02:24:59 PM »

Quote from: Mike Sweeney on December 02, 2004, 06:42:27 AM

Teeth of the Dog was on Wonderful World of Golf last night on TGC. Looks like a wonderful place. At least for the show, he called it his "baby" and seemed very appreciative to work on that land.

Freddy really had it going at one point in that match.

-Ted

« **Reply #45 on:** December 03, 2004, 05:15:52 PM »

Dr. Cosgrove:
I like LRCC a lot, but saying "with the exception of the ocean setting" is a little like asking Mrs. Lincoln about the play. If LRCC were in Florida, I think it would be a top ten course. It's biggest weakness, in my opinion, are the par threes. Not because they're not good holes, but because they're all between 190 and 210 yards - very un-Dye like. (Compare to the Teeth, which Doak call the best set of per threes in the world and are 165, 225, 175. 190). The greens are more interesting at LRCC. All in all, a terrific course. But still, another inland course.

« **Reply #46 on:** December 03, 2004, 11:50:53 PM »

Robert
I've played Casa de Campo...I'm not sure your comparison to Pebble Beach & CPC is accurate. What struck about CdC was the intimacy with the sea...the coastal holes sit down by the water. PBGL sits dramatically well above the sea and the topography is much more dramtic than CdC....as is the scale.

I haven't played Dye Fore, how would you compare it The Golf Club or Long Cove or Casa de Campo or Whistling Straits...in particular their use of angles?

« **Reply #47 on:** December 04, 2004, 12:08:59 AM »

I play Harbour Town and Long Cove quite a bit. I have also played the Pete Dye Club in WV as well as some of his more neighborhood based courses. I really enjoy his designs.

On the other hand, a new course here named Hampton Hall is one of the most un-Dyelike Dye designs I have ever seen. It is hard to explain, but I do not remember anything about it that would make you think it was a Dye.

« **Reply #48 on:** December 04, 2004, 01:19:19 AM »

I have not yet played Long Cove, The Golf Club, or the Ocean Course (I'll get 2 of these in during next year's CPC championship), but have played quite a few Dye courses. I play the majority of rounds in the winter on Ted Robinson, Bell Jr. courses, and even lesser skilled architecturally inspired concoctions--ideal angles of approach are accidents! The Dye Fore is a huge course with as much fairway in 3 holes as the Mountain course has in 18 holes! A player can seemingly spray the ball almost anywhere off the tee, however, even a tour pro will have trouble holding the greens when approaching from the wrong side of the fairway--sometimes this is the middle.

« **Reply #49 on:** December 04, 2004, 10:30:49 PM »

there was a thread a while ago that had pics of dye fore. Here it is.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=8034;start=msg156217#msg156217

and here is an aerial of part of the course. You can really see the width robert is talking about
http://www.tourdelasamericas.com/news/391/dominicana.jpg

In that aerial, look how close that green is to the tee at the bottom of the pic....kinda neat

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