WHY??

SAME REASON WHY GENERALIZATIONS OR SPAGHETTI DON"T STICK VERY LONG TO THE WALL.

"One should not confine their examination of Pete's work to the golf courses he designed.
Like the legendary Paul Brown, one should look at his disciples, the architects he produced, their work, and their impact on American golf along with his."

Pat:

That's an interesting point. Pete Dye's so-called disciples are an interesting and impressive group but what they do seems to me to be a pretty far departure from Pete, certainly in many ways but perhaps not in all. Tom Doak is obviously the best candidate on here to explain if that's true or not and both how and why!

Because only a few posters on this site have played the Dye Fore, its impact on the future of architecture is not yet understood. When I return from my honeymoon my wife and I with Tommy's help will post pictures of every hole.  The pictures will give a good visual, but miss the ground features.  In some ways, Pete may have been reading a great deal of the posts on this sight.  The Dye Fore is an easy bogey, hard par, difficult birdie course.  Tom McWood needs to play this because it is all about the angles.  There are only 2 fairways narrower than 60 yards!  For optimum play, they are US Open narrow--the greens are super firm--pretty much PGA Tour firmness.  This course does have bailout and recovery.  Most importantly, this course handles all skill levels well and at 7700 from the back will handle the 325 average drive.  The full page ad appearing in most of the golf magazines does show some of the shaping  and the runway tee he included.  If Dye Courses are too tough--they are victims of poor set-ups--PGA West in 1986 was not ready for a tournament (not fully grown in grass and grainy immature grass on the greens). More than half the field today bettered par.  PGA West can be very tough, but it is completely fair--the same can be said about Sawgrass--these courses were built to tournament test world class players.  The Disney course may not be great, but it was the group favorite in the Olds and Buick scrambles.  Is Pebble Beach better than Teeth of the Dog?  If so why?

Mike

Sorry for the slow reply, but I'v been away from the site for a while.

Yes, the Ocean Course was under construction, but Henry Terrie got me and my wife an invitation to play.  We stayed at the Inn that night.

As I recall, the green fee was also under construction.

Willie

I'm going to Casa De Campo later this month on a cruise and only have time to play one course so we are playing Teeth.  However, I was told by someone at my club who isn't neccesarily into architecture but likes good golf courses that "Dye Fore blows away Teeth of the Dog".    SO if anyone has played it can you tell us if it really was that great.  I get the feeling that the reason he liked it so much was because of the elevation and the views, which compared to teeth which is played right at sea level.

Jason

Pete Dye CHANGED the nature / focus of modern design. IMHO he is responsible for a movement away from the dreadful bigger is beautiful designs that dominated the 50's and 60's.

Pete Dye re-introduced certain concepts into the game that were abandoned by a good many people practicing in the field.

Pete said it himself -- when people like Trent Jones were moving towards the bigger and bigger style he went the other way with smaller greens and inventful holes that required more than simply muscle.

In my mind, he is without question one of the all-time
greats -- the most influential designer for the 2nd half of the 20th century. His desire to bring back into the game a number of unique and fascinating design concepts is part of that appeal and how others who previously worked for him have used from time to time in their own designs.

Part of the issue many here have with Pete Dye is that a number of his courses don't suffer fools quite so readily. Frankly, much of the disdain some have for his work is really self-generated by the beating their own ego gets when playing a number of his top tier layouts. Likely, from the wrong tee markers!

When one sizes up the quality works Pete has done and what he has INFLUENCED his record and standing are simply first class.

The Golf Club
Teeth of the Dog
TPC / Sawgrass
Harbour Town
Whistling Straits / Straits Course
Pete Dye GC
The Ocean Course
Blackwolf Run (River)
PGA West / Stadium
Long Cove

And let's not forget that he can build a quality course without a big budget...one just needs to pay $16 or so to play Oak Hollow in NC to see that.  

The Casa de Campo experience is like playing Pebble Beach and Cypress Point. I really think Teeth of the Dog is superior to Pebble.  I enjoy its "mundane" holes more than Pebble's 1st, 12th, and 15th.  I really think the Dye Fore is the course that should be getting the attention of the international design community.  Completely lacking in sand dunes, dramatic water holes, and fescue; it is a strikingly beautiful course--the magazines simply have not found the money shot that every Fazio, Jones, and Nicklaus course seems to have today.  I cannot wait to play there again on Dec. 14th.  The Casa de Campo experience (golf wise--though it is Pebble' resort equal)creates good daydreams just like the Pebble/Cypress/Spyglass/ MPCC courses when anticipating a visit.  This is an intangible that is worthy of consideration.

Jim Coleman.....you spoke of teeth and Dye fore but didn't give your opinion of La Romana....

When I was down in Casa de Campo several years ago, I played both and with the exception of the ocean setting thought La Romana was a better set of golf holes.

Comments?

Teeth of the Dog was on Wonderful World of Golf last night on TGC. Looks like a wonderful place. At least for the show, he called it his "baby" and seemed very appreciative to work on that land.

Freddy really had it going at one point in that match.

-Ted

Robert
I've played Casa de Campo...I'm not sure your comparison to Pebble Beach & CPC is accurate. What struck about CdC was the intimacy with the sea...the coastal holes sit down by the water. PBGL sits dramatically well above the sea and the topography is much more dramtic than CdC....as is the scale.

I haven't played Dye Fore, how would you compare it The Golf Club or Long Cove or Casa de Campo or Whistling Straits...in particular their use of angles?

I have not yet played Long Cove, The Golf Club, or the Ocean Course (I'll get 2 of these in during next year's CPC championship), but have played quite a few Dye courses.  I play the majority of rounds in the winter on Ted Robinson, Bell Jr. courses, and even lesser skilled architecturally inspired concoctions--ideal angles of approach are accidents!  The Dye Fore is a huge course with as much fairway in 3 holes as the Mountain course has in 18 holes!  A player can seemingly spray the ball almost anywhere off the tee, however, even a tour pro will have trouble holding the greens when approaching from the wrong side of the fairway--sometimes this is the middle.