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Philippe Binette

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Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2004, 09:22:35 AM »
The course is about 15 minutes northeast of downtown...

It was built on a piece of land own by the city for its sewage plant.


blasbe1

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2004, 09:33:24 AM »
What difference does it make? Personally, I enjoy playing unique golf courses. And, unique golf courses derive their character from unique landscapes. Think about it, Shinnecock Hills, Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Royal Melbourne, the Old Course at St. Andrews. These course all derive their individual character from inherent site characteristics.

Imposing a preconceived idea onto any landscape results in an inferior golf course. Period. Precedent teaches us that. Imposing a dunesland course on Montreal Island results in a fake links.
 :)

Jeff:

I totally agree that the uniqueness of a property (or lack thereof) makes or breaks a great course.  I too much prefer playing unique courses.  However, I question your reliance on "precedent" in rejecting the idea that "imposing a preconceived idea onto any landscape results in an inferior golf course."  Yes, I concede that if by "any landscape" you mean a lousy landscape, the result will likely be inferior, and yes I concede that if your notion of "preconceived idea" necessarily means one entirely at odds with its landscape, then again you'll have an inferior course.  

What I suggest, however, is that an exceptional "preconceived idea" "imposed" upon a rather neutral landscape, such as a sod farm, or flat plain, can still yield very good to exceptional golf courses (I have in mind Tall Grass on LI and Whistling Straights in WI).  Because I share a preference for a course that appears found in the land vs. one created on the land, when I visited Kohler, I prefered the River course to the Straights course, but I can't say the Straights course is necessarily inferior, it's entirely different.  

Perhaps Pete Dye is the modern master of "imposing" his will upon
landscapes, but classic design has its examples too.  For instance, as many on this board have discussed Lido was literally raised from the sea.  I've not seen a sea that I looked at and said, ahh, here I see a tee shot and over here I see a green site.  

My point when boiled down is this:  let go of precedent to the extent it inhibits creativity, reflect and draw from it but do not dwell on it (I realize your post does not suggest looking only to precedent), reject the idea that a links-style course can't be built on unlikely landscapes because in todays world, unless you're travelling half way around the globe or you strike Linksland gold somewhere, most landscapes (with notable exceptions) will not be as good as those at Cypress, Shinney, National, etc.

Thus, I again conclude that while there may be, there shouldn't be, a criticism of a course as "fake links."  Rather, it should have or want merit for what it is not for what genre it ostensibly originates.


Jeff_Mingay

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Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2004, 10:15:18 AM »
Jason,

Comparison between Whistling Straits and Tallgrass is interesting.

If I recall correctly, Gil basically cut (sunk) the centre of the property and filled (raised) the perimeter to facilitate drainage and create some topographic relief at a relatively flat site. The result is subtle, and classy. You can't really tell where construction begins and ends at Tallgrass.  

At Whistling Straits, on the other hand, Pete Dye imposed a dunes-like landscape on a site that inherently exhibited a completely different character. It's clear where construction begins and ends at Whistling Straits.

In other words, even though some significant earthwork was done at Tallgrass, the course melds with the surrounding landscape much more attractively than the "dunes" at Whistling Straits do. For my tastes, Tallgrass is a much more attractive course as a result.

I presume it's quite easy to see where construction begins and ends at Ruddy's Montreal course, too.

This matter is entirely subjective.    
jeffmingay.com

Matt Kardash

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Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2004, 10:24:05 AM »
Matt

While I don't really remember the grass that well ( I played this course last summer), I think it was just plain old bent grass, or something similar. Also, it was drizzling when I played the course so it played very long. However none of that really matters, because as I said (and phillipe has backed-up) all the holes play uphill, and you never get to much run when a hole goes uphill. And that is what I didn't understand, if you are building a course from scratch, why make almost every hole long and uphill with raised greens?

Again, I don't know the CR and slope. And they didn't put it on their site.

The course is actually IN Montreal. It's on the very eastern tip of the the island of Montreal. It's more than 15 minutes from downtown though. I live 10 minutes from the course(if no traffic) and downtown is 15 minutes at best from my house. So I would say the course is at least 25 minutes from downtown.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 10:25:45 AM by matt kardash »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Matt_Ward

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2004, 11:10:42 AM »
Jeff Mingay:

I enjoyed your mentioning about Tallgrass but frankly the layout there is a major step down from what Gil did at Rustic Canyon. The quality of the holes, with a few exceptions, is fairly benign type stuff.

I do agree with you that some people -- possibly yourself -- values the nature of how a course "looks" versus the land the existing land offsite. No doubt the final product at Tallgrass seems to work more in harmony than what you find at Whistling Straits. But, isn't that the unique style of Pete Dye versus the more "fit it as you find it" method of Hanse?

blasbe1

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2004, 11:26:24 AM »
[quote author=Jeff_Mingay lAt Whistling Straits, on the other hand, Pete Dye imposed a dunes-like landscape on a site that inherently exhibited a completely different character. It's clear where construction begins and ends at Whistling Straits.
   
Quote

Jeff:

If you didn't see or know about the site at WS before visiting I'm not sure that I can agree with you.  Unless I missed something, I don't think Dye added the some 30 ft of elevation above Lake Michigan.  Therefore, in relation to the drop off to the lake, the dunes are not so foreign a contrast in my opinion.  

What is evident, however, is that they are too busy and don't appear to have been formed by Mother Nature.  I would not at all say that dunes are out of place with the feel of the property given its wind swept location above Lake Michigan.  

Let's plan to visit WS in 60 years to see how natural it looks then (I'll only be 91) ;D

What about my point with projects such as Lido?  Also, wasn't   a lot  reclaimation done at both the Ocean Course and TPC Sawgrass, yet both those courses seem to fit perfectly with their  immediate environs.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2004, 11:41:36 AM »
I guess it boils down to this. All of my favourite courses meld with the surrounding landscape. Personally, I prefer subtle over sensory overload. That's my taste.

In these photos, Ruddy's course looks to be overdone and clearly manufactured. So does Whistling Straits. Which is fine. Aesthetically, they just don't suit my taste. In fact, I really enjoyed the way Whistling Straits played, and challenged the world's best players during this year's PGA Championship.

I just don't like the way it looks!
jeffmingay.com

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2004, 02:32:50 PM »
The thing that bothers me most here is that Pat Ruddy does do work on actual links courses in Ireland doesn't he?

That is a very scarry thought.


It was built on a piece of land own by the city for its sewage plant.


Phillipe, why am I not surprised? ;)




ian

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2004, 07:07:43 PM »
Tommy, Jeff, and others.....?

Why can't architects make fake links courses?

Would exposed garbage be more natural looking?

If the architectural strategies are well thought out, and the holes well designed; is the look enough to dismiss the course?

Was Raynor's work natural? I love the work, but I would hardley call the style natural.

A question for you both, if everything looked like C&C, Doak, etc. would that be the ideal direction for architecture?
Seriously, is that what you both want? Should all artists be cubists, because a certain brand of critiques only like cubists?

Why can we not embrace Pat Ruddy's bold and manufactured psudo-links (in a landfill in the heart of a city). Does everything have to be "natural"? Are we perhaps fixated to three or four architects and all others are to be dismissed, because they don't fit our taste?

Is TPC Sawgrass a failure according to both of you, its not natural?

I like both of you, and enjoy your opinions often, but........................?

Matt Kardash

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Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2004, 07:36:57 PM »
Ian,

I was thinking about the TPC as well when I was reading some of those comments.

Have you played this course?


At least this course doesn't have any waste bunkers or artificial lakes (though there is like a marsh if I remember). Is this an Irish course? No. But it looks more irish than a lot of other manufactured "irish courses". Actually, in Montreal we have a Cooke design called The Challenger (http://www.golflechallenger.com/en/accueil.htm) that advertises itself as Irish, yet has lakes all over the place. These two courses are night and day. The montreal island club may not be ideal, but it's a not bad looking imitation. People have paid a lot more, for a lot worse.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 07:39:27 PM by matt kardash »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Matt_Ward

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2004, 08:21:08 PM »
Matt K:

Frankly, any course that is "beyond" the likes of The Ocean Course is saying something. I have to ask you this at what tee markers did you play The Ocean Course from?

When the wind picks up to any velocity and one plays the back markers at TOC -- not the silly extreme tips that take the course to 7,800 yards I can't see how ANY course could be much tougher.

I'm trying to understand your comments on the course in Montreal but how does a course feature all holes that go uphill? Are the par-3's the only holes that go downhill?

I can't recall your posting -- but how many times have you played the Montreal layout? I mean if it's just a one time thing it's possible conditions that day were the cause for your comments.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2004, 08:30:30 PM »
It seems my comments have been completely misinterpreted.

A golf architect can build whatever he/she wants to build, Ian. Including a fake links. The thing is, a fake links doesn't suit my taste, aesthetically.

I've had a ton of fun playing Devil's Paintbrush, for example, but I'm really not enamoured with the double greens, sod wall bunkers, etc. I think those features are a bit gimmicky on that site.

Again, that's only my opinion.

No, if every golf course looked like a course designed by Bill Coore or Tom Doak, that wouldn't be good for the game. One of golf's great attractions is the remarkable diversity of its playing fields. That's not to say I, personally, like the look of, and enjoy playing a course like The Challenger. (In fact, the name alone would keep me away if I lived in Montreal!)

People are generally fixated with certain architects - whether they are golf architects or building architects. How could it be any other way?

There are certain people who wouldn't even consider hiring Doak to design a golf course for them. Just as there are people who wouldn't consider hiring Frank Gehry to design a new building. That's the way the world spins.

Certain styles of art are attractive to us, individually. Others aren't.
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2004, 08:36:21 PM »
As for TPC Sawgrass, Dye's work there is a triumph.

Although the course is 100% manufactured, it wasn't designed to look like an Irish links. Nor any other specific course for that matter.

On the contrary, TPC Sawgrass exhibited a revolutionary look when it originally opened for play during the early 1980s. No other golf course had ever looked like Sawgrass.  

Moreover, Sawgrass doesn't appear that out of place in its native surrounds. There are some high mounds, here and there, but no towering "Irish dunes" rising out of that swamp.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 08:37:08 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Matt Kardash

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Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2004, 09:02:44 PM »
Matt

I played the ocean course at the tee's ahead the back tee's (and when I say back tee's i'm not talking about the 8000 yard tee's). The reason I say this course is more difficult is because I wouldn't call this an all together fair course. Most of the holes are downright penal....hit the fairway or reload. I know it's hard to beleive what I'm saying, but when a course has no par 4s under 400 yards, plays to a par 70, has narrow fairways, mostly uphill holes, exposed to strong winds and has some pretty severely elevated greens, then that has all the ingedients to create a ball-buster. I don't think I'm crazy here. Wouldn't you admit that that seems pretty difficult?

I played the course once. i walked it twice. Once during construction and once when it opened.

How do all the holes play uphill? Well they don't, just most do. A few par 4's play downhill, and to be honest, they are actually the shorter ones. And the par 3's play downhill.

I think the best way to explain the topography is like this. Imagine a property that has a huge buldge in the middle. Imagine some holes playing on top of the buldge. Imagine some holes playing around the buldge. Imagine some holes wanting to get on top of the buldge. Imagine a few holes (the par 3's) jumping off the buldge.

It just so happens that the property is shaped in a way where most of the holes are influenced by this buldge and are trying to get up on top.

Besides, the par 3's, I can remember 2 holes that clearly played downhill, the 1st and the 5th. Actually, They both have flattish tee shots, it's their second shots that drop down the hill.


Phillipe, you played this course. I'm sure you noticed all the uphill holes, right? ( I don't think i'm crazy and making this up)
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Matt Kardash

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Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2004, 09:19:22 PM »
Matt,

Even looking at the pictures I posted. I know for a fact that every one of those pictures except one features an uphill hole. And that flattish (it probably is slighty uphill) hole actually has a green that is raised probably 6 feet or so.

(and yes, some of those pics feature the same hole twice)
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

ian

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2004, 09:39:16 PM »
Jeff,

On the contrary, TPC Sawgrass exhibited a revolutionary look when it originally opened for play during the early 1980s. No other golf course had ever looked like Sawgrass.  
Great point, well put
Moreover, Sawgrass doesn't appear that out of place in its native surrounds. There are some high mounds, here and there, but no towering "Irish dunes" rising out of that swamp.  
sure it does, everything is flat for miles and there are huge fills everywhere.

I've had a ton of fun playing Devil's Paintbrush, for example, but I'm really not enamoured with the double greens, sod wall bunkers, etc. I think those features are a bit gimmicky on that site.
I think that site was made to be a heathland course. Dana left almost all the contour of the land in, the natural stone walls, and the native grasses. With no trees and a windy site, what was wrong with that decision

People are generally fixated with certain architects - whether they are golf architects or building architects. How could it be any other way?
I'm not, why limit yourself to a few ideas when you can look at everything and select what you like. I, like you, perfer the GCA favourites, but I also mentioned that I like certain Fazio courses, and provided a detailed review of my favourite Nicklaus course too.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 09:39:45 PM by Ian Andrew »

ian

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2004, 09:42:36 PM »
Why am I grumpy tonight?

On GCA there is a lot of tunnelvision, many tend to criticise anything modern, except the few that work in a certain style. Most of this is done with the person's nose firmly turned up, because he feels he knows more about golf than the so called "Joe six pack".

One of life's greatest lessons in learning is to understand what you don't know and that you don't know everything.

Mick

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2004, 10:07:15 PM »
Jeff,

Would you call Wolf Creek a 'fake links'?  

Mick

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2004, 10:09:29 PM »
I sense you're lumping me into a narrow minded group, Ian. I have to take exception. To start, there are many modern golf courses I like that were not designed by "GCA favourites". But I'm not here to prove that. It's irrelevant.  

Devil's Paintbrush was made to be a heathland course?! Have you studied the great heathland courses surrounding London (England, not Ontario)? Sunningdale, Swinley Forest, Walton Heath, et.al.... Devil's Paintbrush is nothing like a heathland course. It was created to mimic a links.

"... why limit yourself to a few ideas when you can look at everything and select what you like..."? That's exactly what I've been saying thoughout this thread. I do look at everything. And I've selected what I like. Again, how could it be any other way?

I guess I could start taking Prozac, keep a permanent smile on my face, and claim to like everything just the same.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 10:12:04 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2004, 10:22:33 PM »
Mick ol' pal, I was hoping no one would bring Wolf Creek into this discussion  ;D

In many ways, the original 18 holes at Wolf Creek could be described as a fake links, yes. An interesting fact though is, those 18 holes were opened for play in 1983, long before any one else thought of attempting to mimic links features and playing characteristics on an inland site (particularly in Canada), I think.

If I'm wrong, please let me know who else had attempted this concept before Rod at Wolf Creek.

The South nine at Wolf Creek, added in the early 1990s, is a very good course. And definitely not a fake links. Coincidentally, the South nine possesses my favourite holes at Wolf Creek (even though Rod disagrees with me!). But, as per Ian, I know everything. So, Whitman's going to have to live with the fact that he's wrong!  
« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 10:24:26 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Mick

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2004, 10:35:11 PM »
Could n't let the opportunity slide mostly because Rod Whitman himself calls the Wolf a fake links in his feature interview.

What about Praire Dunes?

Mick

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2004, 10:37:54 PM »
Oh, I played your Blackhawk last week and since we just got 25cm of the frozen stuff dumped on us looks like thats it for the year.

You'll be happy to hear that the course was in great shape and that the greens on the front ate my lunch.

ian

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2004, 10:51:00 PM »
"I sense you're lumping me into a narrow minded group, Ian"

No just questioning your opinion on a type of course you dismiss, regardless of what's there. I worked on Osprey Heathlands, so remember I have done a "fake links". At Opsrey the mounds were required for safety, the style came as an alternative to all parkland courses at that time.

If you notice, I have not posted an opinion on this project because I haven't seen the course. He may have mounded the crap out of the site to hide the surroundings and give the player some intimacy in an urban setting. I think understanding what he had to deal with, is very important to this project, and also crutial before passing a quick judgement on the work. I think the mounding grew, due to the income brought in by additional fill helped off-set the costs of the project.

blasbe1

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2004, 12:03:06 AM »
Guys, it's late, the Yankees just lost in extra innings again, so I will catch up in the a.m., but I implore you to re-read my posts and Jeff I expect you to answer the "mimic" issue come morning.  

The rest is just a reasonable combination of logic and reality . . .

blasbe1

Re:pics of the hardest course I have played
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2004, 12:29:15 AM »
I guess it boils down to this. All of my favourite courses meld with the surrounding landscape. Personally, I prefer subtle over sensory overload. That's my taste.

Jeff:

LIDO, LIDO, LIDO, LIDO, LIDO, LIDO, LIDO . . .

Jeff, "sensory overload" dude, don't be a p@#$y!!  

BTW, your aesthetics are questoinable, why don't you stick your neck outside the birdsnest and see what's out there . . .

Afterall, CBM didn't look at the Long Beach Bay and say, gee, this course "melds" well here . . . he and his dregged the shit out of Long Beach and literally created LIDO, potentially the only GREAT American links.

You stated earlier that this was all "subjective" I think you've over stated your point.  

 :P :P :P

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