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SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2004, 12:00:35 PM »
RE Northmoor;  The Rick Jacobsen work is good.  Perhaps Brad will comment as he took a look.  However much of the club is conflicted on what they want; see their love for the "red" 9 which is narrow and heavily treed; the antithesis of the attempt to bring back Ross.  The word is that they have engaged Mike Hurdzan to create a new master plan.  Boards and committees change and so do plans.   RE Evanston; Paul got the history just right except for the committees recommendation to hire 2 architects from different firms to work on the renovation.  Never approved but maybe they anticipated the Long Island pairing of Messrs Nicklaus and Doak with Pritchard and Esler
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CHC1948

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2004, 12:18:23 PM »
I know it has been severely altered, but Carolina C.C. in Raleigh is the worst ross course I've played.  I hope they have plans to restore it someday.  I know Rich Mandell is currently working on the restoration of Raleigh CC and it should be quite nice when completed.

CHC
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BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2004, 12:19:49 PM »
There aren't many "bad" Ross courses still around that Ross - if he reappeared among us - would recognize as a course he designed.

A lot of his low budget, mediocre courses were designed for smaller towns or clubs. These tended to be the projects where he mailed-in his drawings. Many of those courses are now either NLE, remodeled or neglected beyond recognition.

Lots of Ross's more mediocre designs went the way of Ponce de Leon. It was not an especially good course. Partly for that reason it was hard to generate a lot of support to save it. Thus it was sold to a developer and is now NLE.

A better question is:

How many Ross courses are around that, if restored (using some reasonably informed architect), would still be bad courses?

I suspect not many.

Bob  


 

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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2004, 12:28:50 PM »
bob

>A better question is:

>How many Ross courses are around that, if restored (using some reasonably informed architect), would still be bad courses?

>I suspect not many.


I agree!!




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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

JakaB

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2004, 12:30:47 PM »
How can you possibly explain why Pinehurst #1 is so average...
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2004, 12:36:45 PM »
john

remember Ross died about 50 years ago - so he has had little input over how the course has been treated in the interim.
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2004, 12:44:35 PM »
Quote from: CHC1948 on October 15, 2004, 12:18:23 PM
I know it has been severely altered, but Carolina C.C. in Raleigh is the worst ross course I've played.  I hope they have plans to restore it someday.  I know Rich Mandell is currently working on the restoration of Raleigh CC and it should be quite nice when completed.

CHC

I may be wrong, but I don't think Ross had anything to do with Carolina C.C.
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"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

JakaB

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2004, 12:47:41 PM »
Paul,

That is a weak argument...I can't believe that #1 was originally built to be the loss leader it is today...I also can't believe that the conditioning is so poor that it hides what should be at least a great routing and interesting greens....I thirdly can't believe the land at #2 is all that much better than what must be at #1....
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BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2004, 12:50:51 PM »
Did Ross do #1? I seem to recall that #1 pre-dated his arrival at P'hurst. Or something like that.

Bob
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Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2004, 12:58:28 PM »
Quote from: Paul Richards on October 15, 2004, 12:28:50 PM

>A better question is:

>How many Ross courses are around that, if restored (using some reasonably informed architect), would still be bad courses?

>I suspect not many.

Bob/Paul,

Absolutely concur. Wellshire Municipal here in Denver is a Wilmington Municipal-in-waiting. I have Ross's drawings for this course, and with some thought, care and--the rub--$$$$ decades of neglect could be wiped away to reveal a true gem.
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Brian_Gracely

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2004, 01:00:07 PM »
Quote from: CHC1948 on October 15, 2004, 12:18:23 PM
I know it has been severely altered, but Carolina C.C. in Raleigh is the worst ross course I've played.  I hope they have plans to restore it someday.  I know Rich Mandell is currently working on the restoration of Raleigh CC and it should be quite nice when completed.

CHC

CHC,

Has Richard shared his plans for Raleigh CC with you?  Some of us like to think it's quite nice now.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2004, 01:14:11 PM by Brian_Gracely »
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JakaB

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2004, 01:01:11 PM »
Stop it....is there a course in the world built before 1940 that if properly restored/rebuilt wouldn't be a gem..
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Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2004, 01:03:10 PM »
Quote from: John B. Kavanaugh on October 15, 2004, 01:01:11 PM
Stop it....is there a course in the world built before 1940 that if properly restored/rebuilt wouldn't be a gem..

JakaB,

Yes.
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Brian_Gracely

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2004, 01:08:32 PM »
Quote from: John B. Kavanaugh on October 15, 2004, 12:30:47 PM
How can you possibly explain why Pinehurst #1 is so average...

When he first got down to Pinehurst, he finished/added-on to what was already there for #1.  It worked for the NE crowd that mixed in some golf with playing polo, socializing, horseback-riding and other activities.  Then the majority of his time was spent on #2 and building out a design business.  

Think of it like building a new house on existing farm land that had an old barn on the property.  The barn still does its job, but the manor house is where all the time and energy is spent.
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2004, 01:32:52 PM »
barney

>Stop it....is there a course in the world built before 1940 that if properly restored/rebuilt wouldn't be a gem..

that is just plain silly.

of course there are - both Evergreen GC and Big Run - on Chicago's South Side  - are examples that no matter how much money was spent on restoring, neither would be a gem.

 ;)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2004, 02:03:41 PM »
dave  

big walk -  ughhhhh!


#14 at Evergreen?  Is that the uphill, blind-green, three-par where the Beverly caddies would hide in the bushes, and if a golfer hit it up on the green, the caddies would run and put it in the hole?

It was amazing how many 'aces' wee scored on that hole!

 ;) ;)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

CHC1948

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2004, 02:51:34 PM »
AG,

From every book I have, it credits Ross with Carolina.  Plus, I went to college in raleigh and played out there often, and spoke to the pro several times....I can't seem to remember his name right now.  I know it has been changed dramatically from its orginal design

CHC
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CHC1948

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2004, 02:56:59 PM »
Brian,

I haven't spoken to Rich in a while, however, I'll be in Pinehurst this weekend and will see if I can get some answers.  From what I remember, Rich is restoring some features that have been diminished over the years.  I don't think there are going to be any drastic changes...

CHC
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TEPaul

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2004, 03:23:47 PM »
"Tom,
Please continue.  4 out of over 400 does not yet make your case."

That's OK Mikey---I'm quite certain the sophisticated contributors to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com will make my case just fine. Even one of the finest in the business, Donald Ross, has to pay a price in quality with high production somewhere along the line. What was it something like 23 courses in 1926 or 26 courses in 1923? Somewhere along the line a price in overall quality is gonna get paid!   ;)
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michael j fay

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2004, 03:23:58 PM »
I think that Carolina CC in Raleigh is being confused with either Carolina Golf and CC is Charlotte or Carolina Pines CC in Raleigh which my records tell me is no longer in existence.

As for the # 1 course at Pinehurst, Ross built this course and continually remodeled it. The last overhaul was in 1946. The course is terminally short but has some wonderful greens. The last time I played it was around ten years ago and I thought that it was outdated at 5,600 yards. It is still a pleasant walk in the park but would get no grade above medioce from me.

If you want a real stinker go to the Carter Country Club in Lebanon, NH. This is a very mediocre nine holer on which you can be instantly killed from numerous directions on many holes. I suspect that someone did the course some real disservice in the area of redesign but have no bona fides.
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CHC1948

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2004, 03:37:54 PM »
I know the difference between the two carolina clubs, however, I just realized that the only reason I thought this was a ross course was from the membership.  All the members I've met there always acted like that club was better than it really was...so that makes sense.  I apologize for the confusion.  

I'm playing #1 tomorrow....I think it's a very fun course and one of the best walks around.  Sure it's not a world beater, but it serves its purpose well.  I agree that the greens are great....I'll try to get some good photos this weekend.

CHC
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Brian_Gracely

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2004, 03:49:35 PM »
Quote from: CHC1948 on October 15, 2004, 03:37:54 PM
I know the difference between the two carolina clubs, however, I just realized that the only reason I thought this was a ross course was from the membership.  All the members I've met there always acted like that club was better than it really was...so that makes sense.  I apologize for the confusion.  

I can easily see how the folks at CCC would think their club is better than it is, but they definitely should never be confused about the quality of their course.

CCC did host a US-Am qualifier last year (and it got destroyed), and the course is currently closed as the greens are being rebuilt and some other changes.  The one good part about the course is the 17,000sq.ft. house directly behind the end of the driving range....makes for a good target.  
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TEPaul

Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2004, 03:50:07 PM »
"On another thread, with Barney's hook firmly planted in Tom Paul's cheek,....."

Mikey:

That's funny but if you knew Barney the way I know Barney you'd know hooks aren't allowed anywhere near the man. The chances are too good he'd take one of his eyes out trying to tie the hook onto the wrong end of a rod!

;)
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2004, 04:08:28 PM »
I'm pretty sure that no one at Carolina CC (in Raleigh) knows who designed the course.  According to a member who told me via e-mail, they've tried to find out to no avail.
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bad Ross Courses
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2004, 07:54:43 PM »
Dave

the story on the par 3 is definately better!!!

 ;)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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