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Mike_Cirba

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2004, 10:54:29 PM »
Tom Paul;

I'm not talking about Gulph Mills...I haven't been able to get over to see it and I'm sure it's my loss.  Hell, I love Gil's restoration work that I've seen at Plainfield and Fenway.

 

TEPaul

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2004, 07:07:34 AM »
Lest someone on here get the wrong idea of Donald Ross's early design style, I submit the photo in post #9 of early Pinehurst showing a series of extremely artificial looking geometric chocolate drop mounds were probably not designed or created by Ross.

Firstly, Tom MacWood, in his caption of that photo, claims that photo is of early Pinehurst #2. The caption of the same photo from Brad Klein's book states that it's not known if those geometric mounds were on the intial and early Pinehurst #1 course (nine original hole created in 1898 and the second nine on or before 1901) or the early initial nine of the #2 course (1901).

The initial Pinehurst #1 course preceded Ross in Pinehurst and was apparently created primarily by a Dr Leroy Culver, a friend of Pinehurst creator James Walker Tufts. Frank Maples, the early "superintendent of courses" who Ross later worked with may also have created or certainly constructed the initial geometric Pinehurst #1 course.

Another photo in Brad Klein's book shows spectators apparently following Harry Vardon on the initial Pinehurst #1 course in 1900, again before Ross first arrived in Pinehurst NC. That photo, of another hole on #1, shows a highly geometric berm as a cross hazard which would match in style the early geometric style of the photos of the mounds posted above. According to Klein's book when the initial nine of #2 was constructed in the summer of 1901 Ross was back in Mass for the summer.

I mention this simply because this thread is about Donald Ross and his architectural career and it seems to me highly unlikely that Ross, a recent immigrant Scotsman from Dornoch and the Dornoch G.C. would ever have thought to design or create architecture like that shown in that photo above.

As for the first photo in post #9 showing sand mounds clearly within a bunker at Oakley (perhaps 1909) that's another story, and, I, for one, do not believe those sand mounds were ever intended to be permanent architecture, despite Tom MacWood's contention they were even including some contemporaneous "associated article" Tom MacWood claims says they were (some kind of hard packed clay!). I believe those sand piles in that Oakley photo are there to be spread into that bunker, and the "associated article" is either a humorous hoax or simply a reporting mistake.

With Ross's Scottish architectural heritage I seriously doubt that kind of early ultra geometric architecture is anything he actually designed or created himself. He may have inherited some of it in Pinehurst NC but I doubt it could be considered his architecture.

Some of Ross early courses do show some greens that were plain and squarish (including LuLu and GMGC in Pa) but that's a far cry from the type of ultra geometric style mounding shown in those early photos above.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2004, 07:11:16 AM by TEPaul »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2004, 06:37:30 PM »
Quote
Personally I think Williiam Flynn was a better router.

Why does Willaim Flynn have to be a better router then Donald Ross, A. MacKenzie, A.W. Tillinghast or any other?

Can't one simply admire all of the styles and methods they used in laying out golf courses?

We have to remember that Ross, just like many "Scotch Pros" like Willie Watson, John Duncan Dunn, etc.; at the turn of the century left for America so they could make big money for the use of their talents as Professionals who could both instruct the more affluent how to play the Game and to help them construct and build both equipment and rudimentry courses for which to play on. Call it training-wheels if you will, but they first courses were not going to be anything other then temporary layouts until the Game eventually took hold and the need for better golf came about--the courses and golf course design maturated and evolved at the hands of all of the above.

After all, Donald Ross just didn't learn this all at once--he had to learn how to do it. Thinking he did it any other way then by trail and error is just fantasy on those that think it was differently, and that they just started building this stuff right from scratch.

Yes, the styles may or may have not been what these guys thought was golf, but it was what they settled for until people realized, probably after much insistence that the courses they were playing weren't really golf courses but more, obstacle courses--that was the mindset--golf was young and new and addicting to these well-to-do who could aford the equipment and the time to play. They eventually relied on their PAID PROFESSIONALS to educate them further, and once they got past their learning curve of how things flowed and drained and looked natural--the world became their stage.

I think Ross was unique because he learned how to be a GREAT golf architect by identifying where the best golf could be found, as well as learning how to create features to make GREAT golf. Some of it is quirky and fun and unbeleivable because he seemed to get away with quirk, even manufactured quirk better then any of them.  He also made it a life-long passon that garnered the respect of his predecessors, which if your name is Tom Fazio, means absolutely nothing, because you don't believe in Classic Courses or Classic Golf Architecture because it never occured until you stepped away from Uncle Georgie.

But guess what? We still love to play Donald Ross' courses, and of the three Ross courses I have been fortunate to play; Plainfield, Lu Lu, and Gulph Mills, I'll take them 100-1 over any Fazio course including Shadow Creek and The Quarry at La Quinta anyday!

I wouldn't even bat an eye while doing it!


Mike_Cirba

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2004, 07:09:09 PM »
Tom Paul;

I guess you must have pulled the post I was responding to about Ross's various bunker styles getting a bit homogenized to a sort of stereotype in some restoration efforts.  I hope you don't think I was offended by your post because I do understand some of the realities everyone is operating under...I guess I'm just also defending the academic point that wishes some greater consideration for individuality was the rule.

I'm just trying to catch up on some threads here, and I was pleased to see that we seem seem pretty close to agreement on this point.  I was reading the thread on "Golf Quiz" and came across your following post, excerpted here;

"The other lesson to be learned by this thread, I think, is that many restoration architects seem to think that all Ross bunkering is of the flat sand floor grassed down face look and that's what they restore to!"

"Frankly, I'm not sure that some of the best restoration architects today, including the well know Ross restoration architects are under that general assumption or misperception as Tom MacWood seems to be trying to ultimately prove they are by this photographic bunker thread."

I'm not sure why so many restorations feature Ross bunkers that are the sterotypical grass face, flattish sand bottoms when the photographic history is so much richer and more varied.  Perhaps it's partly the maintenance considerations that you mentioned, or the mindset so many people share of what a Ross course is "supposed" to look like, probably from Pinehurst.  
« Last Edit: August 29, 2004, 07:13:05 PM by Mike_Cirba »

JakaB

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2004, 07:30:49 PM »
Tommy,


Why couldn't Ross get any work out west...maybe if MacKenzie had some competition out there you fruit cases wouldn't think he was some kind of God....Next time you want to go on a bash Fazio rant you might want to find a topic you are qualified to discuss....hell..I'd rather play the three Ross jewels you have been so good to visit than any Fazio west of Texas.....insightful stuff my friend...you can do better..

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2004, 09:11:39 PM »
John,
Quite obviously you haven't read Dr. Klein's book on Ross to understand that he did come out West--built two courses-the Broadmoor and Beresford/Peninsula. I've played neither of them, but have researched information on Donald Ross visit to California for Dr. Klein's USGA Award Winning Biography of Donald Ross and his courses.

This would put me at more Fazio courses played then Ross courses. Mind you the three that I've played were all solitary Ross and Ross only originals, I can't vouch for the courses that weren't designed by him under his name. The ones that I have played that are originals, are charming and fun golf with lots of golf architecture to study and enjoy. I still think of all of the shifts and giggles I got when playing all three of these courses. I think you would probably enjoy them to IF you can put aside the fact that they aren't over 7000 yards and weren't manufactured before Brother Tom left the underside warmth of Uncle Georgie's wing.

Have I seen a Fazio designed course better then say Lu Lu, Plainfield and Gulph Mills? Notta chance!

TEPaul

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2004, 09:30:43 PM »
I said;

"Personally I think Williiam Flynn was a better router."

TommyN responded;
 
"Why does Willaim Flynn have to be a better router then Donald Ross, A. MacKenzie, A.W. Tillinghast or any other?"

Good for you Tommy! I agree with you, and I'm sorry I even made a remark like that. The only reason I did is because sometimes on this site (or anywhere else) it's damn near impossible to escape from this horrifying and ridiculous rating and ranking process and mentality of almost everything that everyone seems to be enamored with and fall into all the time----apparently even me on here occasionally despite how frequently I've stated on here I despise it.

This is the primary reason I'll probably always have an issue with an architectural rater and ranker like Matt Ward. Most all he seems to care about in architecture is ranking everything against something else!

You're absolutely right, though, the ultimate goal is to enjoy it and not always have to concern oneself with whether or not it's better or worse than something else!

TEPaul

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2004, 11:21:57 PM »
MikeC:

This is what you accurately quoted from me:

"The other lesson to be learned by this thread, I think, is that many restoration architects seem to think that all Ross bunkering is of the flat sand floor grassed down face look and that's what they restore to!"

"Frankly, I'm not sure that some of the best restoration architects today, including the well know Ross restoration architects are under that general assumption or misperception as Tom MacWood seems to be trying to ultimately prove they are by this photographic bunker thread."

What I should have said and meant to say is (note the parentheses);

"The other lesson to be learned by this thread, I think, is that many restoration architects (we believe) seem to think that all Ross bunkering is of the flat sand floor grassed down face look and that's what they restore to!"

MikeC;

With that alteration I believe the next paragraph reflects what I intended to say on this subject.

The point here is I don't believe as Tom Macwood (and perhaps you) seem to think that some of these restoration architects are redoing Ross courses with that grassed down face style only because they're under the impression that was Ross's only bunker style.

I can pretty much assure you that all these restoration architects that have done Ross courses HAVE read Ross's book and do understand the fact that Ross did do various types of and styles of bunkers throughout his career and in different regions!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2004, 11:30:11 PM by TEPaul »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2004, 01:42:13 AM »
Tom, Like you always said--"it's a great big world of golf architecture out there...."

John K.,

I had to leave abruptly and go to a BBQ, and while on the way there I realized I forgot to add that when he traveled out here West, Donald Ross didn't really want to come but the opportunity did lay for him to design many courses, so he did. He was also somewhat distraught over the loss of his beloved wife, Janet who had passed away not long before and it wasn't the best of times in his life.

Without looking again in Dr. Klein's book to get the exact time frame, I think he spent about two weeks out here in SoCal and then traveled up to NoCal. I seem to think it was probably more for rest then business, and I have found articles where he was more or less treated with celebrity and fanfare in the golfing community. Imagine that coming from the land of celebrity.

So I don't think he was an average talent so much as, I just think his golf courses speak a different language for that paticular time--and in my opinion--when Golf was a much more healthier exciting and energized sport.

Wayne Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2004, 01:49:31 AM »
John-  I can't figure out if you're really serious or just trying to shake us up.  If you have played any one of numerous Ross greats, you can only experience excitement and joy-
golf courses that were built without computers or bulldozers. So what if Ross didn't do much out west.  Not everyone wanted to travel like McKenzie. And so what is he didn't personally do everything with regard to his designs.  I read a recent article in a SoCal newspaper with Doak and he said he relies on several key people to help him with his layouts, and he is doing a collaboration with big Jack now which should be awesome.  

JakaB

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2004, 08:46:22 AM »
John-  I can't figure out if you're really serious or just trying to shake us up.  If you have played any one of numerous Ross greats, you can only experience excitement and joy-
golf courses that were built without computers or bulldozers.


Wayne....you almost make my point in that I enjoy the thousands of great old courses that were built without computers or bulldozers by many, many average architects....Pinehurst #2 is easily the greatest course I have ever played but it is now only a Ross routing with greens built from dumb luck....the Chicago Ross courses I have seen are fine old clubs but not really any more inspiring than an average Wayne Stiles tract....so....with average being a high standard including such architects as Stiles and Bell....I just can't get past the hype of large numbers and influencial members......

Tommy,

Brad Klein doesn't make a ball bounce any higher than Dick Shaap made an athlete run faster.....your ball don't play between the binders my friend...If Ross did do any work at all out west and you havn't seen it...how can it be worth talking about.  Was Ross really any better than Billy don't blame me for Torrey Bell or Mad Max in your book..cause if he wasn't he was just average..

michael j fay

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2004, 08:48:20 AM »
"I'll give him that he was a decent little router"

Why couldn't he get any work out west?"

John,

You have displayed both your hubris and your lack of knowledge.

Who are you to rate Ross as any kind of router? How much experience do you have with Ross coursse? How many have you played? Basically, your condescending attitute only highlights your lack of knowledge.

Your shot at the Donald Ross Society is inane. We do not shill anything, we engage in the promotion of the preservation and restoration of Ross courses and those designed by the other Classical Architects of Golf. I do not believe you have any experience with the Donald Ross Society, you are only shooting off your mouth. Whilst doing so you prove how scatalogical you really are.

Ross built obver 320 golf courses between the years of 1915 and 1929. Why did he not build more on the West Coast, because the cost of time and travel precluded building on the west coast. He only went to Pennsula because they doubled his fee.

After Ross's first wife Janet died in 1923, Ross traveled very little. He stayed in Pinehurst in the winter and Rhode Island in the summer. If it were not for his masterful organizational skills many of his best known courses would not have been built.


Mr. Ross died in 1948, 56 years later 375 of his designs are still being played. Frankly, I do not think that Mr. Ross would care if a uninformed bobblehead like yourself thought he was a good little router.

Your posts have become more and more tiresome as time goes on. If you have a point, bring it up. If you have nothing to say stand pat. If you think that insulting the greats of the Architectural world is clever and makes you look smart, rethink your position.

It is better to keep your mouth shut and have peole think you are stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

JakaB

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2004, 08:58:39 AM »
Mike J F,

I have played more Ross courses than any other single architect and every one has been routed in a manner that I find very pleasing....I doubt you would dispute that.

As long as I see the Donald Ross Society sitting on its blue veined asses whilt French Lick is being destroyed.....if that is to be the case....because you guys feel you have no place in saying anything....I will see your Society for what it is....a self serving bunch of guys who think a bunch of slot pulling Indiana Doofs deserve what they are going to get....why not protect one of the great original Ross courses before it is too late....why not just give it a shot....or is Fuzzy not on your list of architects that deserve your imput...or are you worried that if he does a job you might find favor with it would hurt the future work of the ones you promote.....I bet the press releases on how the wrong architect is at the helm have already been printed......I wish Wanna would be bought by a casino so I could see the stance the Society would take then.....different.....not a bet any casino would take..
« Last Edit: August 30, 2004, 09:01:27 AM by John B. Kavanaugh »

michael j fay

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2004, 09:12:25 AM »
John:

Once again you trumpet your ignorance.

I personally visited the French Lick Springs and Spa earlier this year. I spoke with the Professional and Superintendent. I also wrote a lengthy letter to the Boyce Company President the owner of the Hotel. I laid out the position of the Ross Society and our desire to see the course preserved. I have also contacted the Fuzzy Zeoller Co. to make our case.

The course is presently controlled by the Trump Co. We have no ownership in the Hotel, the Trump Co. or the French Lick Hill course and therefore can only bring whatever pressure to bear that we can muster through our reputation and pleadings.

The Donald Ross Society budget is less than $ 50,00 per year and unfortunately insufficient to take on the juggernaut of the Trump Co. We remain interested and informed on the situation at French Lick and will continue to make ourslves heard.

You on the other hand have done nothing but make accusations that are based on naught other than the assumptions of a sick mind.

Back off Kavanaugh, you are really out of line.

JakaB

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2004, 09:23:49 AM »
Ooooh the paper tiger roars.....would it cost so much to contact the local papers...Evansville, Indiana is a huge golf town and public support could easily sway the casino people who only want patrons.....can your budget handle something that doesn't include a free trip....something like a phone call followed by an email so your letter could be published and a the locals who love golf could get involved.....a east coaster fly in doesn't get it done in green apple land...

michael j fay

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2004, 09:35:15 AM »
Kavanaugh, where are your cards and letters?

We have had a presence and have a strategy, you on the other hand have done absolutely nothing other than shoot your uninformed mouth off.

As for the paper tiger routine, this paper tiger co-founded an organization 15 years ago that heralded the onset of restoration vs. renovation in the public forum. This paper tiger has assisted on 125 restoration projects and has visit another 80 or so sites to promote the concept of restoration. Most of this was done at the expense of the paper tiger.

You on the other hand have done nothing, know nothing and continue to paint these pages with accusations and insults. For an uninformed observer you seem to operate with a large amount of invective.

When you become aware of the operations, the successes and the efforts of the Donald Ross Society perhaps you will appreciate the concept.

JakaB

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2004, 09:55:55 AM »
MJF,

Post a copy of your letter to the Boyce Company....if it doesn't make me puke and it is dated past the anouncement that Fuzzy already had control.....I will join the Donald Ross Society this day....I should become part of a large contingent of members from Southern Illiana..

JakaB

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2004, 10:09:41 AM »
In case you need further motivation....not only will I join but the BBGE will send a sleeve of ProV's to the first four additional first time members who join from this board.....I would just love to meet a new member instead of all the x-members I meet who have quit out of disgust.....The DRS needs some new Midwestern blood..

michael j fay

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2004, 10:12:35 AM »
John:

I will not post private correspondence on a public page.

What have been your efforts at French Lick or are you just the bombastic, no nothing dope you have portrayed. You have not yet answered any of the postings made on theis thread or for that matter any other thread.

Here is my final word:

If you haven't participated in the restoration movement on a hands on basis, especially as an outsider, you will never understand the point or the process. Sitting back at your computer and throwing brickbats at a person and a Society with which you are not familiar is an execise in egotistical nonsense. When you have accomplished anything to do with the preservation of Classic designs I will once again read your threads. Until that time I will consider what you have to say nothing more than the fecal matter in your mind.

JakaB

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2004, 10:24:30 AM »
Mike,

I have to say it is interesting wondering what was in that letter you are trying to hide....is it posted in the members only portion of the DRS website....why not just fax me a copy to 618-943-4149...and btw....what questions have you asked me I have not answered.....I just figured calling me shit for brains was rhetorical if not obvious..

JakaB

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2004, 10:00:18 PM »
This is exactly why the BBGE has never asked for or will accept any funds from any source.....

TEPaul

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2004, 10:59:51 PM »
Tom MacWood:

Forget about protesting too much--I'm reposting this from yesterday to see if you're capable of responding.

From Post #26:

"Lest someone on here get the wrong idea of Donald Ross's early design style, I submit the photo in post #9 of early Pinehurst showing a series of extremely artificial looking geometric chocolate drop mounds were probably not designed or created by Ross.

Firstly, Tom MacWood, in his caption of that photo, claims that photo is of early Pinehurst #2. The caption of the same photo from Brad Klein's book states that it's not known if those geometric mounds were on the intial and early Pinehurst #1 course (nine original hole created in 1898 and the second nine on or before 1901) or the early initial nine of the #2 course (1901).

The initial Pinehurst #1 course preceded Ross in Pinehurst and was apparently created primarily by a Dr Leroy Culver, a friend of Pinehurst creator James Walker Tufts. Frank Maples, the early "superintendent of courses" who Ross later worked with may also have created or certainly constructed the initial geometric Pinehurst #1 course.

Another photo in Brad Klein's book shows spectators apparently following Harry Vardon on the initial Pinehurst #1 course in 1900, again before Ross first arrived in Pinehurst NC. That photo, of another hole on #1, shows a highly geometric berm as a cross hazard which would match in style the early geometric style of the photos of the mounds posted above. According to Klein's book when the initial nine of #2 was constructed in the summer of 1901 Ross was back in Mass for the summer.

I mention this simply because this thread is about Donald Ross and his architectural career and it seems to me highly unlikely that Ross, a recent immigrant Scotsman from Dornoch and the Dornoch G.C. would ever have thought to design or create architecture like that shown in that photo above.

As for the first photo in post #9 showing sand mounds clearly within a bunker at Oakley (perhaps 1909) that's another story, and, I, for one, do not believe those sand mounds were ever intended to be permanent architecture, despite Tom MacWood's contention they were even including some contemporaneous "associated article" Tom MacWood claims says they were (some kind of hard packed clay!). I believe those sand piles in that Oakley photo are there to be spread into that bunker, and the "associated article" is either a humorous hoax or simply a reporting mistake.

With Ross's Scottish architectural heritage I seriously doubt that kind of early ultra geometric architecture is anything he actually designed or created himself. He may have inherited some of it in Pinehurst NC but I doubt it could be considered his architecture.

Some of Ross early courses do show some greens that were plain and squarish (including LuLu and GMGC in Pa) but that's a far cry from the type of ultra geometric style mounding shown in those early photos above."
« Last Edit: August 30, 2004, 11:01:37 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2004, 11:37:18 AM »
In light of this and the other related threads, the only reasonable response is:  BRING BACK THE WINGED FOOT EAST THREAD!   ;D Paul can take it!  I can take it! Shivas can too!  ;D  No threats to do anything except riposte!  And I've never even seen WFE.   ;D ;D

Jeff
That was one hellacious beaver.

Ron Kern

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2004, 02:48:33 PM »
I would love to see the Hill Course spruced up.  That's all.

But, if Trump wants to use the course as a point of profit, it will have to cater to the gambling crowd - and will have to be altered greatly.

It's going to be a shame for that course to be "remodeled."

I'm only about 2 1/2 hours north of the course - maybe Fuzzy will call....

And as far as the talent of Donald Ross - he was good at what he did and he is an indispensable icon in the history, development, understanding and appreciation of golf architecture.

I get tired of the "who is/was better than who" argument.  Golf is the greatest game, I'm blessed to be able to play the game and that is enough for me.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2004, 02:53:33 PM by Ron Kern »

JakaB

Re:Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2004, 03:28:58 PM »
Come on Kern just cause Matt Ward is in love with Purgatory...don't give us that just happy to play the game line of crap.   Butt seriously....how much better was Ross than Dibble......Don't you think that if Dibble got his due he too could have thousands of well healed members paying tribute to the obscure fronting green bump...

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