[Paul_Turner]

Matt

I don't think that the 12th is overated at Somerset and its group of par 3s is hard to beat.  The lack of a really long par 5 doesn't bother me either;  I know several courses like this, which are even stronger than Somerset and Plainfield.   The drive on the 17th at Somerset is wonderful, I agree the approach is plain.  The 18th isn't a bad hole; yes it's short but the green is tricky.  That 2-3 hole stretch at Plainfield is worse.

I didn't say that the Mass Ross courses were "way beyond" Plainfield; I implied that Pine Valley was.  I reckon The Orchards is as good as Plainfield and that Long Meadow is better.  I suspect that Plainfield is higher in all the rankings because it is the premier Ross course in the NY metro area.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike Sweeney:

My personal listing for Jersey is a good bit different than the actual results that came from the poll.

And it is ?

[Cliff Hamm]

Seems to me Baltusrol can never win.  Scores are low and it is criiticized.  Changes made and it's not consistent with Tillinghast's design.  I too feel the lower being ranked so low is not quite right and the upper is likely over rated.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I join TEP in questioning Galloway's lofty status.  The routing is brutal - a 27 hole walk for 18 holes.  One walks the eighth hole four times - once while playing 7; once once playing eight; once while walking back to the 9th tee; and once while walking from the 9th tee.  The second green is absurd, and the 3rd green is only slightly better.  The quarry on #15 should be where Merion's is, not where Fazio built it.  The second shot on 16 rewards the bailout right (the preferred angle to the green) rather than providing a true risk/reward par 5.  The second shot on 10 can be missed left or right w/o consequence.
    Yes, there are some good looking holes. And you're always treated well there in an uncrowded atmosphere.  But over all, give me Hidden Creek or Twisted Dunes (or even Stone Harbor) for my day at the shore.

[TEPaul]

Jim:

I agree with most of what you say about Galloway National, except I think #2 green is perhaps one of the most brilliant I've ever seen anywhere. It really is a "greens within a green" situation, but uniquely, in its case, from the tee as much as from on the green as well. If you miss that green left in that chipping area (a common thing as the right is so entirely penal) the recovery is as challenging as missing Shinnecock's #11 left!

That hole works well primarily because it's so short and that virtual "waist" in the middle of it just makes the hole and the green. That basic design and concept is one well worth copying either actually or conceptually anywhere, in my opinion!

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Don't buy the rationale you offered regarding Somerset Hills versus Plainfield.

The 12 at Somerset is really just a simple short hole with that cuts a cute picture with the neighboring pond. You simply dismiss the pedestrian type par-5's at the course and it's easy to see why -- you don't have any real leg to stand on regarding the architectural emptiness in the category there.

Ditto the concluding holes at SH -- they are truly a cut far below what you encounter throughout the back nine. Too bad the 11th hole could not be the finale.

Regarding Plainfield -- you seem to believe that it's location in the metro NY / NJ area is the key reason why it's rated. Don't buy it.

The greens at Plainfield are well done -- even more so after the work by Gil and company. The 1st hole at Plainfield is one of the great opening holes we have in America IMHO. You also have a stunning array of different holes -- the par-5 12 is certainly among the best par-5's in the entire metro NY region -- if not the nation.

You also have some of the best par-3's you can find -- the 3rd, 6th, 11th and 14th are all special holes. The only argument I can find with the 14th is that it may be too demanding given the green contours for a lengthy shot of 230+ yards.

Paul, how can you say the finish at Plainfield is lower than SH? Hello? The par-5 16th with the cross bunker complex is well done -- ditto the green. The par-4 17th is a great driving hole and the green is well positioned. I do agree that the 18th at Plainfield isn't the greatest but it trumps by miles the indifferent 18th at SH.

The reason why SH gets a big push by many people is what I said previously. Few people -- particularly raters -- play the other courses we have in the state that are not long in length but clearly large in character and charm. That's why Montclair GC and Forsgate, to name just two, are thought of highly. They have a complexity and uniqueness that often gets little attention and fanfare.

Somerset Hills is a superb golf course but it does lack a number of items that can't be dismissed so cavalierly as you seem to imply and even state.

[Paul_Turner]

Matt

You keep misunderstanding me.  I meant the obvious stretch of 13-15 at Plainfield as being worse than Somerset's finish.

[Paul_Turner]

PS

Perhaps you need to travel up to Mass more and sample some of Ross's work there before you dismiss my comparisons with Plainfield.

I don't see anything wrong with the par 5s at SH.  They do have arcnitectural interest and cool greens.  They are just a bit short.

[Paul_Turner]

PPS

The par 3s at SH are better than Plainfield's.

[Joe Hancock]

A number of surprises have come to light and I want to thank publicly the 50 people through the state who assist with this effort. Many of them are general managers, head professionals, fellow raters from all the different publications and assorted interested observers of the Jersey golf scene. Their identity is known only to myself and my publisher Lowell Schmidt.

Matt,

Aren't there any supers in NJ that know anything about architecture that could contribute? Not that GM's and Pro's aren't qualified.....

Joe

[TEPaul]

Matt Ward said:

"The 12 at Somerset is really just a simple short hole with that cuts a cute picture with the neighboring pond."

What a dumb thing to say Matt! You should go back out there again and take a closer look at the slopes and contours on that green and what they mean to the tee shot in there! They may not be quite as dramatic and meaningful as the slope and contour on green #11 but they have plenty of meaning nonetheless. If all you're looking at is the green against the pond and the length of the hole you simply aren't seeing the entire picture of that hole. Why don't you drink a couple of gallons of strong coffee? It might open your eyes and your mind a bit more!  

[Matt_Ward]

Joe H:

I did have two superintendents contribute and a few more were even invited to participate. The problem? Most admitted that they really don't get to play as many of the top courses to weigh in with a set opinion on how they stand versus each other.

Tom Paul:

The 12th at Somerset Hills is overrated IMHO. Maybe you need to see the other notable short par-3's that exist in Jersey. Take for example the 12th at the Banks Course at Forsgate. Named appropriately "short", the hole runs rings around the likes of SH's 12th. Ditto the par-3 11th at Plainfield or the 4th at Hollywood, to name just a few.

Like I said before -- many times raters from outside Jersey will come into the state and simply cherry-pick the top name courses they are most familiar with (e.g. PV, Plainfield, Baltusrol, Somerset Hills, etc, etc). There are other layouts that are equal or beyond SH.

Maybe the brand of coffee you're drinking isn't strong enough.

Paul T:

Plainfield gets its due recognition NOT because it resides in the greater NY / NJ metro area but because it's a great golf course.

I asked you for the names of the MA courses that Ross designed and I'd still like to see the vast number of courses that are equal or beyond Plainfield. That list likely doesn't exist.

Regarding Somerset v. Plainfield ...

No contest on the par-5 front -- Plainfield in a rout.

On the par-3 side of the equation -- again Plainfield has the edge. Frankly, the short par-3 11 at Plainfield is one of the most underrated holes for its lack of length. Far beyond the likes of SH's 12th and 16th holes.

Paul -- c'mon, the finishing two holes at SH are AT BEST pedestrian holes and lacking any real depth architecturally. Heck, the 18th at SH makes the 18th at Cypress Point look like a world beater.

I don't doubt that SH had a number of stellar green sites and contours -- I have said this over and over -- the mid-lenmgth par-4 11th is one of the best of its kind whether in Jersey or anywhere else for that matter.

However, the push by people of SH demonstrated the ignorance that certain raters and other architectural experts have of other Jersey courses (e.g. Montclair, Forsgate, etc, etc) get little attention from those outside the immediate area.

Paul, you need to play more top shelf courses in the Garden State for you to understand what else exists on the golf side in Jersey. Plainfield is even better now post Gil Hanse than it was before him.

I don't doubt SH has plenty to offer and a top ten placement is not some sort of putdown. Plainfield does have its issues -- the closing hole is satisfactory and nothing more. However, the totality of what is there now is among the best of its kind in the USA IMHO.

[TEPaul]

"Like I said before -- many times raters from outside Jersey will come into the state and simply cherry-pick the top name courses they are most familiar with (e.g. PV, Plainfield, Baltusrol, Somerset Hills, etc, etc). There are other layouts that are equal or beyond SH."

RATERS from outside Jersey?? Who cares about them? Certainly I don’t! I’ve played plenty of Jersey courses too--and I’ve played Plainfield in a couple of Compher Cups--I know the course.

I’m just disagreeing with your description of Somerset Hill’s 12 hole which was;

“The 12 at Somerset is really just a simple short hole with what cuts a cute picture with the neighboring pond.”

If that’s all you think of that hole and the only way you can describe it I think you’re blind. It’s not about the 11th at Plainfield or a par 3 at Forsgate---it’s about the quality of the 12th hole at Somerset Hills. One of these days, Matt, you should learn how to stop thinking only in terms of 1, 2 and 3 and start looking more carefully at architecture! That’s one of the primary reasons I so much disagree with this whole ranking mentality crap!  

[NAF]

Matt-

I was out in Las Vegas with the fiance.. Considering the state of my game and the new format for the club championship I gave it a miss.  I'm way too variable off the tee and Alpine is too narrow for me to compete---i don't enjoy putting for bogey all the time.  I gave up a 3 up lead with 8 to play in the match play event this year b/c of poor driving.  

I agree on the H20 issue-yes.. I'm not saying Alpine is Tillie's best, it is above average and worth of praise.  I don't like the ideas of cross bunkering though b/c he never put any on the course for a reason.  I don't know that reason for certain but if I could channel Tillie I would ask.  Maybe he would have put some in now, I don't know but that would be a Renovation and not a Restoration

[Matt_Ward]

Noel:

We missed you for the club championship this week! The cutoff for the championship flight match play was 124 for 27 holes! Talk about choke city!!!

Even Rob missed the match play for the championship flight and had to settle for the next flight.

Regarding Alpine -- the H20 issue is simply regrettable. You and I know the person responsible for this is prone to providing more H20 because he believes that softer makes the course greener and more attractive. There is little awareness or desire to make the course play faster and firmer because heaven forbid the slightest bit of brown color take place on the fairways / greens at Alpine. It's a pity and even more so for the players (women & seniors) who get little roll when playing the course.

Noel -- my idea for a cross bunker at #18 is just that -- an idea. I have seen Tillie do this at other courses and I believe it can work to add to what isn't there now. The rough cut-off across the fairway is really not in keeping with the Tillie flavor IMHO.

Clearly, the impact of Ron Forse is something to watch. I too would like to see Alpine go up in the ratings but the bar of competition within Jersey is a high one and one that others are always trying to raise (e.g. Plainfield, Essex County, Mountain Ridge, etc, etc).

You're point about the 10th green has plenty of merit. I would not want to see the green fundamentally altereed, however, if kept at 10 or better stimp speeds it may need a gentle relaxing of the heavy pitch from back to front to provide for additional pinnable areas on the green. Right now the front 1/3 is the only place for the pin to go. That's quite limiting. Although I was upset with the initial change at #14 green I can now see the changes made there have worked quite well. The green is still quick but it allows for greater diversity in where the flag can be located -- it had opened up pin locations on the left side of the green that previously were not possible.

Noel -- I agree that Alpine is "above average" and worthy of praise. But you need to place Alpine in some sort of perspective when compared to the rest of the Jersey golf scene. Being in the top 25 is not chump change -- but clearly when the work by Forse is done the impact of that will need to be assessed. Will that mean a top 20 or top 15 position. I have no idea but I'm glad the club has the right person in charge of the greens committee and that the focus on quality archictecture that embraces what Tillie created is front and center now. In years past the focus at Alpine was more on how large the shrimp wasfor dinner than the nature of quality design that Tillinghast provided.

P.S. I also believe a redo of the 6th green is needed. The front half of the green is simply "gotcha" style golf. One other thing -- I have mentioned to Rob that a new championmship tee could be included for the hole when the green is improved. You could extend the tee back alongside to the left side fo the 5th green and this would add a good bit of yardage. Just an idea -- likely never to happen except in my imagination!





TEPaul:

You are confused on what said and the context with which I offered my statements on SH. I never said the course was bad or that the 12th hole was weak. I just said it was overrated when compared to OTHER short par-3's in New Jersey -- likely, a number of them you have not played or played recently. Too many of these holes are simply glossed over by a great many people. The people who provide info for Jersey Golfer don't dismiss or pass over these type of holes. They search them out.

Tom, you may not like rankings because they ultimately involve choices that have to be made. I guess you prefer an architectural golf world in which everything is lumped together under some sort of headings / groupings and leave it at that. Fair enough -- for you. Not I.

SH is a wonderful Tillinghast layout -- however, it is simply overrated when compared to other layouts in Jersey. Too often raters come from outside the Garden State and only play a select chosen few courses and then they leap into action by proclaiming it's the best "this" or the best "that" without ever sampling the fuller range of courses that dot the landscape. That was my point -- you simply missed it or dismissed it. Either way -- that's your prerogative and it's no less my prerogative to dismiss what you say.

[Paul_Turner]

Matt

I've played enough top shelf golf to have a reasonable idea of the quality that NJ offers.

You are wrong regarding the par 3s re: SH vs Plainfield.  The 2nd at SH is better than the excellent 11th at Plainfield.  The remaining 3 are clearly better at SH, the 8th and 16th are touch, strong holes with wicked greens.  And the pond on the 12th, which you malign, is more attractive/natural than the par 3 water hazards at Plainfield.  Do honestly prefer the 14th at Plainfield over the 12th,8th or 16th at SH??

The routing is just as good at SH.  Both are on tight pieces of land, but waste none of it.

You are conveniently ignoring the 3 non original holes at Plainfield, that don't stack up with the rest.  It's just a terrain problem...it's much flatter and tends to be soft.

I think the courses are both super and about equal in quality.

You haven't listed the problems with the par 5s at SH?  I'll grant that the 6th is a bit pedestrian, but the 9th and 10th are fine to me.  The 10th plays short, but the it has two very appealing shots.

Take a look above, I have listed two Mass, Ross courses (Orchards and Longmeadow) that I've visited which are as good, or, as in Longmeadow's case, better than Plainfield.  I've haven't seen the other big name courses like Winchester and Salem.  

On GCA, you often hold the position that ranked courses in other parts of the US would not be noticed in the NY metro region because the competition is so strong.  Well I put it to you that Plainfield would be a little lower in the rankings if was next to other great Ross courses like in Mass.

[NAF]

Matt-

I don't know why they would make the hardest hole on the course --#6 harder (even with a softer green).. It is extremely hard to hit that hole in regulation even from 436 yards.. I reckon in plays a good 460 ish and your tee shot just dies into that upslope. From the Tips and with my best drive on the hole ever, I've still had a 6 iron in.

When the 18th becomes 636 yards (I think that is what it would become with a tee out by the mulching area) perhaps then they will finally mow that stupid cut of rough out..

BTW, by my calculations Alpine will be 6900 yards when they are done with back tees.. If it plays like a green slog, that is awfully long considering how hard the course is..

[ForkaB]

Take a look above, I have listed two Mass, Ross courses (Orchards and Longmeadow) that I've visited which are as good, or, as in Longmeadow's case, better than Plainfield.  I've haven't seen the other big name courses like Winchester and Salem.  

On GCA, you often hold the position that ranked courses in other parts of the US would not be noticed in the NY metro region because the competition is so strong.  Well I put it to you that Plainfield would be a little lower in the rankings if was next to other great Ross courses like in Mass.

Paul (and Matt)

I played two of Ross' best courses in Mass. (Winchester and Charles River) a couple of weeks ago, and each is absolutely superb.  I am a New Jersey golf virgin, but they could hold their own with any of the courses in neighboring states (NY and PA) that I have played (with one or two possible exceptions).

[TEPaul]

“TEPaul:
You are confused on what said and the context with which I offered my statements on SH. I never said the course was bad or that the 12th hole was weak. I just said it was overrated when compared to OTHER short par-3's in New Jersey --”

Matt:

I’m not confused on what you said at all, although apparently you are. You said this;

“The 12 at Somerset is really just a simple short hole with what cuts a cute picture with the neighboring pond.”

That’s definitely not the same thing, Matt, no matter how much you try to back-pedal and rationalize things!  
 

[Matt_Ward]

Noel --

Agree with much of what you said. However, the focus of Alpine still never includes the vast amount of H20 that gets applied via man's hands. The course needs to be firmer and on top of that they should simply eliminate the rough because the playing angles will keep people honest for those who miss wide of the mark. The only people hurt by the rough are those less skilled. They have enough headaches already with the greens and the hilly nature of the land.

When I spoke about the 6th I agree about the uphill nature -- but others like Pete Dye have designed long par-4's that play slightly uphill in order to bring back the long iron or fairway metal for the second shot. The hole is not served properly with the abrupt green for such a show not. I'm sure Forse will be able to design a green that is still challenging but leaves out the circus / wind mill aspect you see today.

Paul:

What's so wroooooooooooooong with the three new holes that Plainfield included. How is the present 13th and 14th holes -- located int he tunnel sooooo wrong? I don't doubt the back tee length at #14 can be much with how the green is today (e.g. the elephant hump that's there now!). Keep in mind that the club was wise enough to combine two of them to make for the existing 12th hole you find today. And even though the existing 18th was meant to be the 16th hole it still isn't thaaaaaaaaaaaaaat bad of a closer -- clearly beyond the likes of the closer at SH IMHO.

I never questioned the greatness of the 2nd hole at SH -- I simply said the collective nature of all four at Plainfield are better. The 11th at Plainfield gets little attention as a superb short par-3 -- and how about that delicious green!!!

You also played a conveniently tap dance around the fact that SH has no par-5's -- save for the 9th at best. The other two are pedestrain holes. They neither put any pressure on the first or second shots and the greens are simply low level Tillie stuff.  It's just filler and no where close to the gems Tillie had provided like the 4th at BB, the 4th at Fenway, etc, etc. Ditto the lame finish with the 17th and 18th -- heck, the 18th at Cypress Point is world class when compared to the finish at SH.

The problem with many people is that they view SH simply from a narrower range of "pure" architecture and do not calculate the elements of the cumulative shot values as compared to what you find at Plainfield. SH has great green sites on a number of holes -- it also possesses Paul a fair number of inferior holes that when stacked up against other Jersey gems can be seen -- provided you have your mind open to such things.

Paul -- you're right when you throw back to me the notion that a number of NY metro courses benefit from being in this area of the country. However, the pedigree and greatness of Plainfield is there -- whether it be based in Jersey or some remote location in the Dakotas. If you know me from my posts I base my feelings on the depth of what a course provides and have little regard for their location.

One last thing -- I have played the Ross courses you mentioned in MA -- they are marvelous courses but not in the same category of overall greatness as Plainfield IMHO.

P.S. Plus -- Just remember the totality of other "short" Jersey courses when compared to the likes of Somerset Hills. Places like Montclair, Forsgate / Banks and even tiny Morris County GC have plenty on par, if not better, than the layout in Bernadsville.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Matt-

  You mentioned Morris County GC.  I know this was an offshoot of Baltusrol, and Raynor was the architect.  I also know it's rather short in length, low six thousands range, I can't seem to find any information on it, which is fine for the club, I suppose.  
  At what time in Raynor's career was this built?  The club logo has "1894", but Raynor didn't start building courses until ABOUT 20 years later, correct?  
  In any case, I would be interested to find out about it--are the British holes represented as in most of his works, or is it different in architecture than what we usually characterize Raynor as?  

Also--what do you know about Echo Lake in Westfield, apart from it's partially Ross?  

[Matt_Ward]

Doug B:

Morris County Golf Club -- located in Convent Station -- about 3 miles from the Square at Morristown is a unique design and one that gets very little attention from those who should know better.

You are quite correct -- the course is short -- likely from the tips it plays about 6,300 yards -- give or take a few yards.
The original layout opened as you state -- 1894 -- the club was also a pioneer in not only permitting women to play but to be members of the club. Morris County even hosted USGA events very early in its history -- also rather unique given the pedigree of the other courses that hosted such events then.

The charm of the Raynor design is quite simple -- the first six holes are rather shortish -- the 2nd is a reachable par-5 but the green is quite devilish. The guts of the course starts with the superb 7th -- also known as "Big Ben" -- IMHO it's one of the best long par-4's in NJ and for that matter in the USA. The 7th plays roughly 452 yards and it features a fairway that tumbles up and down like a rough ocean! The green is delicious because it falls away from the player and no less than seven bunkers hug the outside ranges of the putting surface.

The following hole -- the 8th is a par-4 of about 424 yards. Here the hole sweeps left and you need to work the ball accordingly. This stretch of golf continues through the very undervalued redan-like par-3 13th.

For all the fanfare that places like Shoreacres gets (a Raynor design too) I would put Morris County right up there with it. The layout is still fun for most people and the Raynor design elements are still front and center on so many holes.

Regarding Echo Lake -- yes, it's a Donald Ross design and it too has a string of solid holes. The issue with EL is that there are also a string of rather ordinary holes. AS an FYI item -- the club is one of the very few that has hosted both the US Boys and Girls Junior championships.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Matt-

  Thanks for the reply.  I saw some of Echo Lake today, specifically the holes nearest the clubhouse (#1 and #18).  The club website has the breakdown of holes by architect.  I know Echo Lake also has had several other architects, among them Robert White, which brings me to the second part of my question.  
  He was, as I understand, a Scottish architect, and the architect of Manasquan River, in Brielle.  I took a ride earlier tonight, and saw the holes nearest the road on the clubhouse side, as well as (what appears to be) a three-hole stretch on the river side of Riverview Dr.  
  From the appearance of the holes, I saw what I perceive as a little bit of Travis and a little Ross, due to the bunkering, overall looks of the golf holes,  and defenses of the greens.  The only thing I know about White was that he collaborated with Walter Travis on several projects, including Columbia (MD) and East Potomac Park.  
  What do you know about Robert White?

[Paul_Turner]

Matt

Not tap dancing, just not really bothered if a course has a full threes shotter or not.  You'd probably not get along with truly great courses like Swinley Forest, West Sussex and St Enodoc.

The green on the 10th at SH isn't boring at all.  It's quite severe!  What's unappealing about the tee shot from up high (encouraging a fade).  And the approach up to that attractive greensite, eh?

You're still wrong about the par 3 comparison: only the short 3 is better at Plainfield (and not by much), the rest are stronger and more varied at SH.

The 13th, 14th 15th are reasonably good holes at Plainfield.  But are certainly no better than the 17th and 18th at SH which you dislike so much.

[blasbe1]

You mean they have courses in Jersey and all this time I thought they only had the Turnpike?

Sorry, the New Yorker in me couldn't resist.  

   

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