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wsmorrison

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2004, 06:36:23 AM »
According to the topo that shows the Macdonald/Raynor course and Flynn's design overlayed it, the M/R green was rectangular and oriented on an approximate 45 degree angle.  Flynn's green is more kidney shaped and has a large front lobe which is about 30 percent larger than the entire M/R green.  The green is significantly bigger and of a different shape with a slightly different angle of approach due to a new tee.  It appears that the current green is substantially higher than the original M/R green if the topo lines are accurate.  Tell me, Tom Macwood, does the physical evidence and the written evidence indicate anything to you about possible changes to the green?  Rather than compare the fees for rebuilding a green and building a bunker, isn't it a more reasonable comparison to look at the fees for building a new green and rebuilding a green?  The rebuilding fee is nearly 1/2 of the building fee and is a reasonable amount even given significant changes.  Its not like they had to buy the fill.  The massive Flynn bunkers and sandy waste areas provided more than enough fill for the remodeling of the 6 holes.

wsmorrison

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2004, 06:39:44 AM »
Tom Macwood,
We don't know for sure as yet what the exact changes are, but we are in the research process and with the information available to us now, this is the current conclusion based on educated assumptions and we are presenting it as that.

ForkaB

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2004, 07:20:37 AM »
Great research, Wayne.

What interests me is WHY?

Why did Flynn decide to alter what seems to have been a perfectly traditional and functional "Redan?"  Did he think he was building a "better" hole or was it maybe an attempt to erase some of M/R's "stamp" on the property?  Is the new hole a "better" hole than the old one?  If so, why?

Thanks in advance

Rich IFMM (In Full Mucci Mode) Goodale

wsmorrison

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2004, 07:40:34 AM »
Hard to say, Rich.  If the green was in fact rebuilt, Flynn must have determined that his redesign would have been an improvement.  I think it makes sense according to the modern direction that Flynn was going in providing a specific shot test for the new version of the hole; one based upon an aerial challenge.  Flynn wasn't giving up on the ground game, his courses often retain this feature, but he was testing the complete game on his championship designs.  If you look at the ability to play ground shots and aerial shots at Pine Valley and Merion (the most influencial courses to Flynn) it is split about 50/50 and is close to that at Shinnecock.  Flynn continued to use ground and aerial approaches although often times he pinched the front entrance and flared out the bunkers.  My guess would be that Flynn wanted the 7th at Shinnecock to be an aerial shot of a specific type.  If the player couldn't pull it off, the score was going to mount.

ForkaB

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2004, 07:54:40 AM »
Many thanks, Wayne.  Excellent explanation.  Looking forard to the book!

As an afterthought, if Flynn (re-)designed the hole with the aerial game in mind, is it not surprising that most of the best players in the world tried to play it that way last week?  And, is it not also surprising that some of us on this forum think that "maintenance meld" on that hole was anything but "ideal" last week, given that so many good shots, hit as the architectect designed them to be hit, were so unrewarded?

Cheers

Rich

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2004, 07:59:59 AM »
Wayne/Tom -

It's curious that Flynn rebuilt the green, builds a new tee for the rebuilt green, and then Shinnie elects to use another, older tee. Any idea why they would have done that?

Are there other holes where Shinnie put only part of the Flynn redo in play?

Odd.

Bob  
« Last Edit: June 28, 2004, 08:04:29 AM by BCrosby »

T_MacWood

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2004, 08:02:10 AM »
Wayne
"Tell me, Tom Macwood, does the physical evidence and the written evidence indicate anything to you about possible changes to the green?"
Makes sense to me....like I said maybe they altered the contours (and the size), maybe the altered the innards, mayber both, maybe something else. I don't have the foggiest idea. It sounds like the green was expanded significantly.

"Rather than compare the fees for rebuilding a green and building a bunker, isn't it a more reasonable comparison to look at the fees for building a new green and rebuilding a green?"
That's a good idea...how much did Flynn charge to build a new green?  

How did Shinnecock's original Redan (green) compare to other Macdonald/Raynor Redans? And other than the angle...how does the current green differ from the typical Macd/Raynor Redan?


wsmorrison

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2004, 08:35:47 AM »
Rich,
Thanks for your comments.  It would appear that the pros did not often hit the appropriate shots into the 7th, according to Tom Paul who cites Mark Michaud who watched play on that hole.  I am amazed that this was the case.

Bob,
I don't know when they obsoleted the Flynn tee at Shinnecock's 7th.  Perhaps at some point they thought the entire hole was an original Macdonald/Raynor hole save for the newer Flynn tee and they decided not to use the Flynn tee to be sympathetic with what they thought was the design.  A number of the sandy waste areas have been vegetated and the bunkers formalized but every other Flynn design was incorporated and in use today.  Granted the greens have shrunk in size and the complicated outside contours have been ovalized, but this may be brought back when they return the fairway widths.  It would be great if they'd return the undulating sandy waste areas although taste and maintenance costs may preclude this from happening.

Tom MacWood,
The cost for building (grading) a new green was stated in my first post on this thread.  The cost was $1350 for each green when graded.  I've only seen 4 M/R redan holes, so I am not an expert.  It seems to me that M/R did not have nearly as severe an upslope preceding the green as Flynn's Redan concept holes do at Shinnecock, Philly Country, and even Huntingdon Valley.  Since we don't know for certain what the original M/R Redan green looked like in detail, it is hard to say how it compares to their other Redan holes.  I think the bunkering was different.

We do know that the green is bigger, of a different outline shape and has a better approach from Flynn's obsoleted tee.  Given that Tyng approved and paid for the changes suggested in the Toomey letter, I'd say the bunkering and the green were altered fairly significantly.  Does the current hole differ greatly from other M/R Redans?  I'd like to hear what George Bahto and others more familiar with the designers think.

 

TEPaul

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2004, 09:20:01 AM »
Tom MacWood;

Again, it's very hard to say what he did to that green. The expense record would seem to indicate he did somethng, though. It could have been as simple as just replanting it, perhaps redoing the entire seedbed or as elaborate as rebuilding the shape, green contours and orientation of the green, including raising (or lowering) the heights of shoulders and green surrounds.

There is no architect who could just look at that expense report number and tell exactly what was changed or not, basically it just doesn't work that way and that's lllogical to expect.

Probably the best way to tell what was changed is to simply find a photo of what the green looked like on the Macdonald/Raynor course and compare it to the way it is now. Last Friday I thought I might get a little lucky that way as I was talking to some fellows from the old days at NGLA (who'd caddied there) and they called up this nice older guy who immediatedly came down and I interviewed him. He began caddying at Shinnecock in 1929 (before the course was changed) and they told me he had a great memory. It appeared he did but he couldn't remember what the old green was like or if it was changed and he couldn't even remember the details of any of the other changes going on at that time. Of course he was only a ten year old kid caddying then and obviously not that interested in the details of golf course architecture.

There're other ways though, that would be more indicative than just asking an architect. One way is through Mark Michaud and soil samples! Mark has done some interesting and perhaps unique soil analysis of old greens before (at Pebble I think). He takes a clear pipe and pounds it down through a green surface or perhaps the top of a bunker surround, pulls out the pipe filled length-wise with old soil/sand layers and such, cuts it in half length-wise and then closely photographs and analyzes the entire layer structure of the layering sample. This is great stuff and compared to other greens (perhaps on NGLA) could possibly tell a lot about how a green was rebuilt or altered. I call stuff like that "golf architectural archaeology".

One of his really knowledgeable interns from Michigan State out there the other day mentioned he thought Macdonald/Raynor (I think) used some charcoal in their greens so if that didn't show up that might be indicative of something. I got the tel #s of all these people to call for follow up detail on this kind of process. I doubt Mark or the club will be interested in going to too many extremes in this way but who knows---Mark is really interesting and interested that way and very resourceful, obviously.

But there're other methods of comparison some of which Wayne just mentioned. Toomey and Flynn were remarkably detailed in all the things they drew. What I mean by that is everythng we have from them is pretty much in exact scale. They just didn't seem to draw lines on courses and greens before and then after haphazardly. Perhaps this is just the engineer in Toomey. As you might know engineers are very exact with volumes and such and generally the drawing of them.

Wayne has the before drawing of that green on the topo of Macdonald/Raynor's green and bunkering at his house and I haven't looked at it that closely in a while but obviously he just did. Those drawn lines on the topo of that previous green are probably exact. So comparing them to what he drew for the green that's there now shows something. So might the before contour lines on the topo across the basic form of that old green---so then what we'd do is measure the elevation lines across that green as it is now.

I think the green-side bunkers and their surrounds now could tell a lot too. They're different from what was there on the old redan. I'm not sure if you've ever analyzed anything like this but obviously the surrounds of a green need to tie-in to the sorrounds of green-side bunkers so analyzing the differences in the shapes and formations of green-side bunkers can tell a lot about the outside edges of a green.

The thing that really strikes me, though, is how basically similar the over-all topographics and placements (green and green-side bunekrs) of that entire green and green-end looks to a couple of other redan-style greens Flynn did no more than a year or two previous to this one. That includes, as I've mentioned before, the redans of #7 Philly C.C. and the redan of HVGC's #3. The style and playability, very much including that immediate fairway upslope are all basically the same!

ForkaB

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2004, 09:28:27 AM »
Wayne

My guess is that the reason so many pros tried to hit a slinging hook onto #7 is that they had unfortunately read too much on GCA and thought:

1.  GCA tells us that this hole is a "redan."
2.  TE Paul tells us that a slinging hook is the only way to play a "redan."

I've always known that "these guys are good."  I 've never thought that "these guys are rocket scientists." :)

A_Clay_Man

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2004, 09:34:50 AM »
 It would appear that the pros did not often hit the appropriate shots into the 7th, according to Tom Paul who cites Mark Michaud who watched play on that hole.  I am amazed that this was the case.
Does anyone know if the teeing ground, has an inherent subtle slant? If so, that would negate just a slight cut swing?

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2004, 09:35:13 AM »
Tom,
Is the #3 green at HV Flynn's original design?  I was led to believe it was changed?
Mark
« Last Edit: June 28, 2004, 09:35:39 AM by Mark_Fine »

wsmorrison

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2004, 11:07:26 AM »
Speaking for Tom, the 3rd green at HVCC was changed on the left edge.  It was built up and sort of scalloped edged.  I think a former president got tired of his ball running left and over the green so he got it changed, I believe by Joe Kirkwood.  This does not change the overall concept of the hole although it clearly affects the playability...for the worse.  Tom is correct about the look and playability of Philly CC's 7th being reminiscent of Shinnecock's 7th.  Huntingdon Valley's 3rd doesn't have as steep a runup as the others but it plays similarly.  The 14th at Rolling Green, a reverse redan has a steep upslope fronting the green.

T_MacWood

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2004, 12:41:37 PM »
What Flynn did (or didn't do) specifically to the 7th green really has no effect on the fact the golf course is a great Flynn design....likely his greatest design.

And what he did (or didn't do) there also doesn't effect the interesting fact that Flynn chose to retain some of the old Macdonald/Raynor character within this design.

Perhaps George Bahto has an old picture of the original Redan green...I suspect he would also be able to identify any oddities (if any) in the current green as compared to other Macdonald and Raynor Redans.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2004, 01:08:01 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2004, 01:03:01 PM »
Mark:

I'm almost certain the left rear of HVGC's #2 (par 4) was raised and the surround scalloped by Joe Kirkwood (that green ran away in left rear originally) and as Wayne said I believe the left rear of #3 (redan) was probably raised up too. Linc Roden knows all these details. If #3 was raised in the left rear some that's mean it used to play more like Shinnecock's #7 does now.

TEPaul

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2004, 01:37:24 PM »
Tom MacWood:

That obviously is a question without a determinable answer whether or not Flynn chose to retain some of the Macdonald/Raynor characteristics when he some of the landforms of six of Macdonald/Raynor holes. We have no idea at all what Flynn thought of Macdonald/Raynor---he never wrote or said anything about them as far as we know. There's no reason to think he thought one way or another about Macdonald or Raynor from anything we've ever seen. There definitely is some pretty undeniable PVGC influence, though, on his original holes at Shinnecock. Of course I'm referring to his "undulated waste areas" and separated fairways which Flynn notated on some of his design plans. Personally, I think it's pretty hard to just look at some "characteristic" of a golf hole and state that proves an architect was copying or retaining something from another architect. It seems to me, as time goes on, that type of assumption gets a bit overblown on here sometimes.

Flynn is somewhat hard to pin down as he was an interesting combination of a guy who was influenced by certain people probably but also pretty darned innovative on his own.

I don't see that much Macdonald/Raynor in that 7th green but I sure see some similarities of other Flynn par 3s and just looking at the remarkably high right side of that green it reminds me a lot more of the very high right side of Tillinghast's #2 Redan at Somerset Hills than it does anything Macdonald/Raynor. The difference with Tillinghast's SH's #2 is it turns in the middle and this one doesn't. There's also very little question that Toomey and Flynn certainly did remove all the bunkering style from the Macdonald Raynor course and install their own bunkering style. The redan hole is an excellent example of that.

T_MacWood

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2004, 05:22:46 PM »
TE
Arguably the Redan was Macdonald & Raynor’s trademark….their most recognizable hole. The fact that Flynn chose to retain that hole (if not completely, at least in concept) is very interesting IMO.

wsmorrison

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2004, 06:03:18 PM »
Tom MacWood,

What do you find interesting in Flynn retaining the redan, albeit a conceptual version, at Shinnecock Hills?  I don't see it as that interesting considering that Flynn was building redan-like holes years before his work at Shinnecock thus demonstrating an established interest in the concept.  Certainly by the time Flynn started working on Shinnecock, the redan was not exclusive to Macdonald and Raynor courses; it was gaining acceptance among other architects.  Tillinghast built the redan at Somerset Hills in 1917 and Flynn built his versions in the mid-1920s.  Did other contemporary architects use the concept?  It wouldn't surprise me if a number of immigrant Scots designed versions of the hole at the same time Macdonald was making it one of his prevalent template holes.  

Given that SHGC is one of only two Macdonald/Raynor courses that Flynn worked on (The Creek was the other-and there is no indication that he was going to do any redesigns of the redan 8th hole), what can be made of it?

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2004, 08:57:41 PM »
Wayne,

For the history you describe in post 42 would the same apply to the 17 hole at SHGC named Eden? As an interpetation of the original Eden hole based on what Flynn saw being done by Scot immigrants and other contemporary designers.

Thanks

T_MacWood

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2004, 09:49:57 PM »
Wayne
As you have emphasized, Flynn created a number of Redan-like one shot holes. Compared to other versions they are more or less loose interpretations—he didn’t appear to be interested in the tight formula followed by Macdonald & Co.

Macdonald and Raynor (…and Tillie at Somerset Hills) attempted more faithful reproductions of the 15th at North Berwick, not only the green orientation but also the bunkering placement, including the bunkers crossing the fairway 120 yards or so from the tee. The version of the Redan at Shinnecock is the most faithful version I’m aware of on a Flynn golf course.  Understandably he altered the bunkering to blend with his style and the other 17 holes, but it’s definitely a full-blown North Berwick inspired Redan.

I wonder, in those days, if the hole was easily visible from the NGLA…I suspect it was. Perhaps Flynn preserved the hole out of respect and admiration for Macdonald. I find it all very interesting.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2004, 09:59:17 PM by Tom MacWood »

wsmorrison

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2004, 07:06:01 AM »
"Understandably he altered the bunkering to blend with his style and the other 17 holes, but it’s definitely a full-blown North Berwick inspired Redan."

Tom,
I am certain that you have studied the Redan concept more intensively than I have.  I've played N. Berwick twice and studied a vast majority of Flynn courses and do not agree with you that #7 at Shinnecock is a full-blown representation of the N. Berwick Redan or other Macdonald/Raynor Redan holes that I have seen that are, as you say, more faithful reproductions.  The severe upslope fronting the green and the high pop-up of the green from surrounding terrain is quite different from typical Redan holes that are on natural ridges.  The original M/R Redan hole at Shinnecock appears to have been on a more natural ridge with a grade that lent itself to the Redan concept.  The hole we see today appears significantly higher in elevation than the topo drawings indicate.  Yet I see the consistancy in your logic as I believe the Shinnecock Redan is similar in execution as the Somerset Hills Redan.  I further believe as does Tom Paul that the Shinnecock Redan is strongly representative of other Flynn Redan concepts.  


"I wonder, in those days, if the hole was easily visible from the NGLA…I suspect it was. Perhaps Flynn preserved the hole out of respect and admiration for Macdonald. I find it all very interesting."

Tom, your post seems to indicate that you think Flynn left the greensite alone save the bunkering.  Is this your belief?  If so, at this point, I'd strongly disagree with that notion.  It is clear that Flynn chose to retain the concept of a Redan on this hole, I don't think it had anything to do with respect or admiration for Macdonald but rather to do with the quality of his efforts to design the best course he could.
 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2004, 08:34:22 AM by Wayne Morrison »

T_MacWood

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2004, 08:15:46 AM »
Wayne
Macdonald & Raynor followed a basic formula when copying their version of the Redan (some are of  the opinion that formula is superior to the original version). Of course there are variations, depending upon different factors including the site and natural features of the site. I suspect a Macdonalld Redan differs slightly from a Raynor Redan which differs from a Banks Redan which differs from a Emmet Redan...
Isn’t CC of Charleston’s one of the most severely sloped Redans in captivity?

Part of that formula is the position of the bunkers—there is an old schematic of the original Redan in Bauer’s book, there is model of the Redan in Hunter’s book (I believe its Hunter, maybe Thomas’ book, I don’t remember I could be wrong), and there is plasticine model in an article on the Redan written by Macdonald that show the basic bunker positions.

The Redan at Somerset Hills is more or less a faithful reproduction of the formulaic American Redan (bunkers and all)—I suspect Lees had something to do with this hole.  I’m not aware of a Flynn Redan-like hole that followed that bunkering formula…..other than Shinnecock Hills....but than again I'm no expert.

I don’t know if the greensite was left alone or not. My thought is that corner of the property is closest to the NGLA and Flynn appears to be an admirer of Macdonald and his work (his own Redan-like versions and I believe you said he created a version of the Channel hole down in Florida). I borrowed that idea from Whitten’s article. No big deal--just an interesting supposition to chew on.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2004, 08:18:48 AM by Tom MacWood »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2004, 09:07:46 AM »
I'd say that the redan at Piping Rock has a steep fronting bank.  And the original does to quite a degree too.  I think that's why it was called the redan...you had to get over the "fortress" wall.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

ForkaB

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2004, 09:29:43 AM »
Paul

Stop stating the obvious!

These guys are on a full-denial-redan=CBM mode.  Don't bother them!

TEPaul

Re:Shinnecock Hills #7 is a Flynn green and other information
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2004, 09:11:43 PM »
Jeeesus, is it hilarious to watch you guys go on and on and on about what exactly a redan is and isn't. As for William Flynn on the 7th hole at Shinnecock, he was probably just trying to do an interesting hole that some refer to as a redan or a redan concept. He probably couldn't have cared less if somebody got all in a twitter because the bunkering or the run-up approach or God knows what wasn't the exact expected representation of Macdonald's redan or Raynor's redan or whatever!

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