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George_Bahto

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Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2001, 09:54:00 AM »
John Stiles:

John you're obviously a Willie Dunn fan - SO AM I!

YOU SAID:
So, if you have a hole, a 'biarritz' hole abandoned in the 1920s (built well before then... don't know exactly when) at Shinnecock, built by the person who designed the chasm hole at biarritz, you need to thank ole Willie Dunn somehow in doling out the kudos. It would be brilliant to take the Chasm idea and create a relatively artificial biarritz hole where nature allows ....but it would seem Willie may have taken that leap from the Chasm to the ground.

You should know that Willie DID NOT build the Biarritz at Shinnecock - Macdonald and Raynor did when they redid S/Hills in in 1916! It was a Raynor/Macdonald course from 1916 thru 1930.

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2001, 10:02:00 AM »
D Moriarty: please call me George

The broad definition of a Biarritz hole is just about the green - a large green - virtually two greens - separated by a deep swale - the swale could be anywhere from 3' to 5' deep and usually about 30 feet across from front to back. There would be long strip bunkers down each side of the entire green complex if the topo allowed.

In virtually all the original versions there was a small "framing" bunker" about 150 to 175 yards off the tee which paid tribute to the end of the carry over water at the hole in France (the Chasm hole)

The definition is not about the cliff to cliff play - that just happened to be the protoype version which is near impossible to duplicate.

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2001, 10:38:00 AM »
R J: I think Langford knew what a BZ hole was - his style is very much like Banks etc.....  I think he just didn't want to do a copy-cat.

The 16th at Yeamans Hal;l is a biarritz - it is just not used as putting surface on the front section. Not many were originally planted as full putting greens.

If I remember correctly when I first started visiting courses of theirs, just about 2 or 3 were planted and used as full putting surfaces (just Yale and Chicago and I think Tim Davis at Shoreacres had one) come to mind). I would tell clubs about the full rendition. There are now about 30 or more using that style green.

Interestinly, the first one built (Piping Rock) was never a "double" green. Rich Spear has probed it and there is no trace of a green base under the turf.

Think of it this way. Considering the equipment of the day, the 1920s, the hole could not be driven on a fly unless downwind. Early descriptions of play amounted to: "hit a push-shot (low line drive) - the ball should dissappear into the swale and hopefully come back into view on the green." (actually that's how the lower handicapper should play the ball anyhow if the supers would keep the approach" green" nice and firm.

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mike_Rewinski

Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2001, 04:34:00 PM »
George, someone told me that on the Biarritz at Yale the front portion of the green pitches away from the tee making it easier to get the ball to roll up onto the back plateau, is this true? Did you have the room to build a Biarritz at Stonebridge?
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GeoffreyC

Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2001, 04:52:00 PM »
Mike

The front green on the biarritz 9th hole at Yale does not have a distinct pitch either front to back or back to front.  It's actually pretty flat (check out the new picture taken from the back in Ran's course profile. When the hole locations are on the front, it is not really difficult to stop a 5 or 6 iron on the front section. Perhaps the area immediately adjacent to the downslope of the swale is tilted a bit. George nicely describes the distinct right to left pitch of the back section of the green. Still, its a real kick to see the ball disappear down the swale and then reappear trying to come up to the back.

Sorry you couldn't make it to the GCA outing in May but please let me know when you have time and come up to Yale as my guest to see for yourself.

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George_Bahto

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Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2001, 05:33:00 PM »
Hi MIke: - I'm looking to come out there next week

The front of Yale really accepts a shot very nicely as Geoffrey said.

I'd love to "shoot" that section of the green and really see if it is flat (but things are in turmoil up there right now).

It is really neat to see a great shot fly to the "back" green and se it often sort of works its way over to the left collar if the green speed is good. Back pins are great at Yale.

I believe that Yale is the only Biarritz  that should "allow" a front pin.

I was able to build a Biarritz at Stonebridge but the developer, by that time, was screaming bloody murder about the amount of soil I was using. I would have liked it a lot wider but it works OK. That's probably the one hole I was a little unhappy with but others have told me it is fine.

I made it up on the 18th hole though, a huge double Plateau (11,000+ sq ft) on a 455 dog-leg par-4 with interesting putting on each level - not to be found on most D/P greens.

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

les_claytor

Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2001, 08:31:00 AM »
Modern Bariritz' anyone?

I've helped build a few greens that were of the Biaritz variey, but modern conventions seem to strangle most attempts.  The new greens, (I think I've been involved with 4 or 5) featured a wider middle swale with pinnable area and the tiers are probably 1/3 the height of the green in North Berwick.  
Man that green is severe, and that's why it evokes debate. However, an architect would really be sticking his neck out to pull off a true Biaritz today.  

The angle of the greens were also different  usaully offering a more frontal approach on typically par-3 holes.

Safe to say the new greens were not real close and surely not worth a cigar.  However, I do believe the design offers great variations as we've heard from the previous posts.

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Pete Adams

Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2001, 10:29:00 AM »
George Bahto: Are you saying that Chicago's biarritz (#3) was originally planted as a full putting surface? Would you mind please checking the notes from your visit and get back to me? Thanks!          
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2001, 01:15:00 PM »
Pete Adams: What I'm saying is that when I first visted Chicago it was planted as green - the 1922 Chicago aerial clearly shows it wasn't built that way when Raynor did the course over in 1922-23.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Pete Adams

Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2001, 01:24:00 PM »
George Bahto: Thank you for the explanation!
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2001, 02:26:00 PM »
An interesting Biarritz green can be found at The Creek Club. It has to be the longest specimen biarritz green i have ever seen. It can play anywhere from a 9 iron to a 3 iron depending on where the pin is cut. interestingly, the entire green is surrounded by water.
I feel like there is not enough written about the creek. Not blessed with tremendous length, it is one of the more interesting Raynor/MacDonald routings that i have encountered.

Camargo Club also has a very nice biarritz.

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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2001, 03:49:00 PM »
By longest biarritz, i meant the depth of the green. it has to be 40-50 yards deep.
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George_Bahto

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Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2001, 06:14:00 PM »
SPBD: the 11th green at Creek is about 240 feet from front to back (also that, from back to front ..... :-)   )
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2001, 06:15:00 PM »
SPBD: the 11th green at Creek is about 240 feet from front to back (also that, from back to front ..... :-)   )
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2001, 07:17:00 AM »
George -
It can be considered a biarritz, right?
an 80 yard long green. holy smokes!
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Mike Hendren

Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2001, 10:12:00 AM »
Black Creek's Biaritz is the most fun golf hole I have ever played.  From the back tee (Messrs. Stein & Wicker buy their clubs from NASA)on a wet day this spring I had to take a 3-wood to try to reach the back tier.  Fortunately, I hit a career shot.  Unfortunately, it needed to carry one yard further or ten yards less! From the swale, it was an easy three-putt for bogey.  

My home course has what I'd call a "stretch" Biaritz with a fairly broad but shallower mid-section that is most frequently pinned - similar to the modern biaritz described by Les Claytor. The mid-section is level with the fairway with the front and rear sections slightly elevated.  A false front of only a couple of feet makes the front section the most difficult to hold since it is also the narrowest from front to back.  It's fun to see if the ball reappears on the back shelf to a rear hole location, but just as much fun to hope it doesn't disappear over the front shelf when the pin's up front.  Since the hole is a 580 yard par five, the third shot, typically from 110 yards, can either be played with a wedge or low runner regardless of the pin location.  

GCA darling Todd Eckenrode was a member of this club during his stint with GR Baird so I'd welcome your insight here or via e-mail.

While the biaritz has been traditionally designed to receive a lengthy approach, I think it would work well on a short par four.  Imagine a narrow strip of pinnable green in front of the Valley of Sin for example.

BTW, Doug and Scot were gracious hosts and are justifiably proud of Black Creek.  GO!

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Scott W.

Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2001, 12:57:00 PM »
Mike,

Your a good sport....I played the up tees today and hit a low hot 6 iron to a back pin.  To my dismay it wasn't quite hot enough and it teased me a little before settling in the swale.  Fortunately, I 2- putted for par.  I hope you can make a return trip to BCC soon and tell Joe K. I said hello.

Regards

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Keith Durrant

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Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2005, 06:00:50 PM »
There really ought to be a "glossary" of terms on this website so the unwashed can cleanse themselves...

I have to advise that a couple of years ago, after my round, I stood in the bar at North Berwick sipping on my beer and struck up a conversation with a gentleman at the bar...who revealed himself to be the Secretary! In response to his asking how I enjoyed my round, I couldnt help mentioning how much I loved the "biarritz green". Needless to say he was completely unaware of the term, so we moved onto the safer ground of discussing the hallowed Redan :)
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Bill_McBride

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Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2005, 08:23:00 PM »
Keith, that is a great clubhouse and bar at North Berwick!

Did the secretary phrase his response by starting, "My dear sir,"?

I don't think the UK crowd is up on Biarritz greens.  Are there any examples anywhere but US courses by MacDonald, Raynor, Banks and various modern interpreters?
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2005, 08:47:12 PM »
Never mind the Biarritz...has anyone heard from our friend Mike Rewinski?
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Steve Curry

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Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2005, 08:31:19 AM »
Mike,

I got excited when I saw this post, much like I do when someone pulls a Ran post forward.  I do miss some of the people who have slid into to the murky lurky zone.
 :'(
Steve
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Sean_A

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Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2005, 09:23:28 AM »
Out of curiosity, wht do some feel that N. Berwick's #16 is not a Biz hole?  Is par the reason?  Or is it because the front is pinnable (though I did watch two guys four putt when the pin was up front)?  I though the approach was much more difficult than the putting.  I am confused.  

Ciao

Sean

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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2005, 09:39:30 AM »
George Bahto,

How would you rate the Biarritz at Essex County West ?
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Phil Benedict

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Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2005, 11:11:04 AM »
Yale #9 and Fox Chapel #17.  Both play downhill and are roughly 225 yards.  The gullies appear to be about the same depth.  Generally need a wood to reach the back tier on either hole; long iron puts me in the gully.

Yale #9 is more visually spectacular because of the pond (which shouldn't come into play), but I prefer the Fox Chapel version for the following reason:  It's out in the open whereas #9 at Yale has woods and fescue bordering the green.  A slightly off line shot risks a lost ball at the Yale Biarritz, which is not the case at Fox Chapel where you can miss the green by 20 yards either left or right and still find your ball.  My admittedly wimpy strategy at Yale is hit a 3 or 4 iron into the gully and hope I can two putt.  Worst case score should be a bogie.  At Fox Chapel I am able to go for the back tier with a wood because the downside is less penal.

By the way, I think this site suggested the proper shot is to hit the downslope of the gully and sling it forward to the back tier.  Has anybody actually down that?  Pretty small target.  I think you have fly it to the back tier to get it there.
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Tom_Doak

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Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2005, 11:18:08 AM »
In the olden days (before regular irrigation) you would have landed the ball on the front part of the green and watched it scoot through the swale and up to the back.  If you flew the shot all the way to the back of the green it would likely wind up down the bank behind.
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