A good begining and end

« **Reply #25 on:** October 19, 2001, 11:20:00 AM »

I forgot, Pine Valley gets my vote for the thread.

It's interesting that as highly ranked and regarded as Cypress and Pebble are, they absolutely cannot be considered here.

« **Reply #26 on:** October 19, 2001, 11:22:00 AM »

Scott,

Yes, on both sites, but not this year.

« **Reply #27 on:** October 19, 2001, 02:05:00 PM »

Patrick,
I apologize for offending you. I am simply trying to learn more about these holes that a lot of you guys talk about all the time. It would be great to play many of these courses that are discussed but that is not my primary objective. Most years I volunteer at the US Open so I can see holes in person I might not otherwise see. The tournament itself is secondary when compared to seeing the architecture of the course. I've only met a few GCA guys thus far but I think they would agree I am interested in learning.

« **Reply #28 on:** October 19, 2001, 02:27:00 PM »

Ed Getka,

I'm puzzled, how did you offend me ?

« **Reply #29 on:** October 19, 2001, 02:46:00 PM »

Patrick,
Perhaps I misinterpreted your intent in your question to me.

« **Reply #30 on:** October 19, 2001, 05:45:00 PM »

Ed Getka,

I think you might have, there was no intent to do anything other than ask a legitimate question.

« **Reply #31 on:** October 19, 2001, 06:34:00 PM »

Patrick,
I'm looking forward to seeing the pix of the course. In the meantime I'm trying to sketch the description of the hole as you guys described it to see how close it approximates the real thing. Yes, I do have too much time on my hands.

« **Reply #32 on:** October 22, 2005, 11:09:55 AM »

My monthly bump of an old topic. Seems like this one could get some good airplay from the current group.

Not to step on Pat's 4 year old thread, but how about which nines feature a good beginning and end?

A few of my votes:

Back Nine: Rolling Green
A, B and C Nine - Huntingdon Valley

For 18 Hole Courses:
Bethpage Red
Merion
Shinny

« **Reply #33 on:** October 22, 2005, 04:20:57 PM »

1-2 and 17-18 at St. George's in Ontario. All are quality, with a perfect short-four/long-four start and two great long fours to finish.

Oak Hollow, my favorite muni in High Point, NC, starts with a 320 par four followed by a 480 par five, both with killer greens. 18 is a beast of a four, toping out at 450, with an uphill tee shot, then a downhill second to a small shelf of a green.

« **Reply #34 on:** October 23, 2005, 11:24:48 AM »

How about Riveria. #1 is a birdie hole to get you going and #18 is a tough finish which can make or break your round.

« **Reply #35 on:** October 23, 2005, 01:02:35 PM »

Quote from: Adam_Messix on October 14, 2001, 05:48:00 PM

National has a fantastic start and finish.

Absolute truth, no matter what hole you start on.

« **Reply #36 on:** October 23, 2005, 10:36:02 PM »

Columbia CC in MD. Like Merion it is a nice intoduction on the first hole and a killer 18th that par is an excellent score. (This is still assuming that we are talking the first and 18th holes only but I love the start and finish at Sand Hills better but it has always been mentioned.)

« **Reply #37 on:** October 23, 2005, 10:43:32 PM »

Winged Foot West!
1 and 18 are a tough combo to top!

Mountain Ridge & Fenway have marvelous 1st and 18th's.

Just a few...I'm sure many more qualify

« **Reply #38 on:** October 23, 2005, 10:56:35 PM »

I think many are viewing the question in the context of difficulty, which I don't think makes for a good begining and ending.

Tom Doak reported that the driving force behind Sebonack wanted a par 5 finishing hole such that members and guests might walk off of the 18th green with a positive feeling, as opposed to making # 18 a killer par 4 that would almost certainly leave the golfer with less than a satisfied feeling.

The same could be said of the first hole, the introduction to the golf course.

Who wants to start the round with a certain bogie or double bogie, with no fighting chance at a par or birdie ?

Remember, many golfers don't visit the range prior to teeing off, so the first hole constitutes their warm up.

« **Reply #39 on:** October 23, 2005, 11:10:29 PM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on October 23, 2005, 10:56:35 PM

Who wants to start the round with a certain bogie or double bogie, with no fighting chance at a par or birdie ?

That would seem to disqualify NGLA #1, no?

How about Friars Head?

« **Reply #40 on:** October 23, 2005, 11:11:21 PM »

Pat, National is probably my favorite course I have ever played, so in many ways i think your first post is the answer. However, I would add three others into the mix, as courses with great bookends. In no particular order:

a) Inverness: A very cool opener with a tee box shared with #10 and a huge waste area separating the two holes. A tough opener where par is a good score. #18 is one of hte best short four finishers I have ever played. Major championship history adds to it.

b) Mountain Lake: #1 is a short four with a double plateau green. The pin greatly affects the hole where par should be the score, but many three putts occur. #18 is an exciting finisher over water (not really in play leading upwards towards the historic colony house. The pin position on #18 dramatically changes the difficulty of the hole.

c) Garden City: A fun short opener with a blind tee shot. An unusual par 3 finisher with a green that is shared with the practice putting green and people sitting on the patio watching the finishes. Go in the bunker left and you have quite a challenging up and down.

« **Reply #41 on:** October 23, 2005, 11:20:24 PM »

Dan Taylor,

I had overlooked Inverness.

It has a great combination of opening and finishing holes.
Neither are overwhelming, but both offer thier unique challenge.

As to GCGC, # 18 can be very difficult, but, the 1st hole is a spectacular opening hole, followed by another great hole, where pure distance isn't the defining criterion.

I haven't played Mountain Lake, but am hoping to do so this winter.

SPDB,

No, # 1 at NGLA gives the golfer a sporting chance at par or birdie without requiring brutal length.

# 18 on Friar's Head is a very difficult golf hole and chances are, other than the views, that a golfers recollection of the hole will not be highlighted by their score.

« **Reply #42 on:** October 23, 2005, 11:46:36 PM »

Royal Melbourne East.

« **Reply #43 on:** October 24, 2005, 01:44:30 AM »

I just returned from a trip to Ohio, and I actually felt that the opening and closing holes at Canterbury were a lot better than Inverness. On the first hole at Inverness, it's easy to hit driver thru the fairway. If you get off the tee well, you have a downhill lie to an elevated hard green- a very tough par even with a lofted club in your hand for the second shot.
I would also vote for Friar's Head and Skokie. Lesser known Black Sheep near Rich Harvest Farms, an all men's club and terrific links layout is also good.

« **Reply #44 on:** October 24, 2005, 12:03:40 PM »

Since the gang just returned from the Dixie Cup, I think Tobacco Road has very exciting first and eighteenth holes.

I'd also put Sutton Bay right up there for a thrilling opening attention grabber that really riles up your juices for what is to come; and a exciting finish that actually makes you anxious to turn the cart back around the big hill and head for the first tee all over again for your second round of the day.

That sort of feeling like you can get, and is usual and customary at places like Sand Hills and Sutton Bay, (where one plays all day and multiple rounds) is unique and the big opening and finish concept works to perfection on the psyche.

Somehow, it really struck me how time is flying by when I noted that this thread started 4 years ago!

$:-\$

« **Reply #45 on:** October 24, 2005, 12:25:33 PM »

Quote from: RJ_Daley on October 24, 2005, 12:03:40 PM

I'd also put Sutton Bay right up there for a thrilling opening attention grabber that really riles up your juices for what is to come; and a exciting finish that actually makes you anxious to turn the cart back around the big hill and head for the first tee all over again for your second round of the day.

What I like about Sutton Bay's 18th is that it's NOT a -- if you'll pardon the expression -- ball-buster.

It's not an easy hole, by any means -- but a drive in the (wide) fairway should give you a reasonable chance to hit the green and putt for birdie.

I like that.

« **Reply #46 on:** October 24, 2005, 01:02:26 PM »

Me too, Dan. But, the green is pretty clever with the fall away right, guarding bunkers front left, and shallow but very wide shape. The design from an architectural and smart facilities management point of view is cool to have a second Swampy's refreshment hut and then a neat return to the first tee. The place is designed to work on your thrill-o-meter.

« **Reply #47 on:** October 24, 2005, 01:09:52 PM »

Pat - Taking your logic, I think Friars Head is a good selection. I agree that the first hole should ease the player into the round and give him some confidence, while not necessarily conceding par. Friars Head #1 with its width accomodates some creakiness in the players driver.

But I don't think the same logic should apply to the 18th hole. By that point, the player will be as warmed up as he is going to be, and the hole should provide more of a challenge than does the 1st. Friars Head 18th is a challenging hole, but I think it is memorable and a good counterweight to #1.

« **Reply #48 on:** October 24, 2005, 01:39:18 PM »

SPDB,

I'm not saying that # 18 isn't a good hole or a challenging hole, I just think it's a very rigorous hole with disaster awaiting almost every shot.

« **Reply #49 on:** October 24, 2005, 02:52:55 PM »

Pat -
With the prevailing summer winds out of the SW, the hole isn't outlandishly difficult. But that gets to my point, why shouldn't the hole be moderately challenging (in contrast to a benign opener)?

It's fairway might be the widest on the course.

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