Back To Back Par Threes

« **Reply #25 on:** November 07, 2001, 08:15:00 AM »

O.K., Tom H., play by the rules, please. I've played par 3 courses with 18 consecutives par 3's. How's that?

Did you have to mention In-N-Out Burger and tease us who aren't on the left coast? I'll get my next fill of In-N-Out in about 5 months in Vegas. That, and fish tacos at Rubio's.

« **Reply #26 on:** November 07, 2001, 08:45:00 AM »

Bill McBride:

How nice of you to think about me. I love the Bonita Bay Club, which now has 5 golf courses. Arthur Hills designed the original 18 holes, which did feature back to back par 3 on one 9. They were #7 and #8 on the old configuration that was at one time part of Golf Digest's TOP 100 in America.

The 2nd course went across the street and is called Creekside, so they had to come up with a name for the first course and called it Marsh.

The move to three courses came by extending each of the Marsh nines out for more holes, so you now have two 18s that don't return at the turn.

Old #7 and old #8 are now #16 and #17 on the Marsh course. The new #7 and #8 are also back to back par 3s as you mention.

The hard holes from the old Marsh course wound up on the current Bay Island, and that is considered the toughest of their courses today.

For as many times as I've played all of their 5 courses, it never even crossed my mind when I read Doug's post. You are right, they have back-to-backs twice on the same round!

« **Reply #27 on:** November 07, 2001, 09:22:00 AM »

Sorry, Scott. But your mention of Rubios trumps my In-'N'Out... we have the latter in NorCal, sadly not the former. SoCal also exclusively holds one of few burger chains superior to In-'N'-Out: Tommy's....

As for par 3 holes, well, I was just being the smartass I so love to be!

TH

« **Reply #28 on:** November 07, 2001, 11:03:00 AM »

I, too, have been to a Tommy's, on my first ever trip to the west coast back in 1991. We stopped at one near downtown L.A. (at night, yes, we watched our back) on the way back from Magic Mountain. I still remember the chili on top and the grease dripping off. Pass me another napkin, please.

« **Reply #29 on:** November 07, 2001, 11:14:00 AM »

Mr. Burroughs, I salute you. Your knowledge of burger joints is scratch. You also hit on truly the ONLY way to do Tommy's: late at night, preferably after a hard night's drinking.

Pass the napkins most definitely!

Now back to the par 3's....

TH

« **Reply #30 on:** November 07, 2001, 12:45:00 PM »

Huckster,
Okay, SoCal savant. What corner is Tommy's on?

« **Reply #31 on:** November 07, 2001, 06:24:00 PM »

Gib,
Which Tommy's are you referring to? There's about 10 of them.

« **Reply #32 on:** November 07, 2001, 06:38:00 PM »

I love this site! Where else would a query about back to back par threes devolve into a discussion about Cali cuisine? By the way, Rubios showed up in Denver about 2 years ago. After an initial favorable review re the fish tacos, I gotta say there are many better culinary choices out there...I suppose, as in golf architecture, it's a matter of taste!

Doug

PS I'd forgotten about Manele's back to back threes.

« **Reply #33 on:** November 08, 2001, 04:25:00 AM »

Gib-san:

Mr. Burroughs beat me to the punch here. There are indeed sadly many Tommy's. Of course for us valley boys, we claim the original to be the one we most frequented: in Van Nuys, near where Roscoe hits the 405. But claims to being the "original" Tommy's are as shrouded in mystery as what Raynor's routing of Cypress would have been.

I'm sure the Trojan brethren claim one down near there...

TH

« **Reply #34 on:** November 08, 2001, 04:42:00 AM »

Ted Janeczek

I think you are correct about Desert Highlands. I believe it is 15-16 or 16-17, no? I'll check the card when I get home tonight if I have time.

Also, you never called to play this season!

« **Reply #35 on:** November 08, 2001, 05:56:00 AM »

If Rancho del Pueblo counts, then consider that the Short Course at Pine Valley has 10 of the best par 3's (if you play it that way) anywhere.

« **Reply #36 on:** November 12, 2001, 01:33:00 PM »

St. Davids in Wayne PA has back to back par three holes (#9 & #10). Although #9 was originally designed by Ross as a short par four, the current hole is remodel from tee to green by Tillinghast.

« **Reply #37 on:** November 12, 2001, 09:30:00 PM »

Desert Highlands does indeed finish 3-3-5-5.

As Neil Crafter pointed out, I berated Kooyonga for having back to back par 3 holes, and in general I do not like the concept ... I think it is bad for the rhythm or flow of the routing.

The sole exception is where you find two must-build par-3's and there is no way to stretch the first one out to a par 4. The tenth at Pacific Dunes was originally drawn as a short 4; I just didn't know that David Kidd had already built a fairway on the site of my tee. But we had to use the tenth green site, and we had to build the 11th hole, and I've never regretted that decision for a minute.

I can't imagine building back-to-back 3's again soon, but you never know what the next site will suggest. The one I looked at today should have a par-3 for the first hole, but I don't think my clients will buy it.

« **Reply #38 on:** November 13, 2001, 08:50:00 AM »

West Sussex has consecutive par 3s at 5 and 6. The 5th is a nice short iron shot and the 6th is about 225 yards downhill over a pond with the option to play to fairway to the right. The holes are very different in the way they play and as such I've never contemplated it being a weakness.

« **Reply #39 on:** November 13, 2001, 10:04:00 AM »

Island Hills in Centerville, MI -- a course we did that opened in 2000 had back to back threes

one of the threes plays literally from the mainland to an island -- hence the reason for back to back threes (you have to see it, to fully understand why)

I agree with Tom though -- it is not something I like to do intentionally, as it does seem to take away from the flow -- but, if the land calls for it, then I always will argue for it.

The worst situations are when developers practically demand the cookie cutter "par 72 -- 7000 yard -- 4 three, 4 fives and 12 fours" routing -- and God forbid, no back to back threes. And then, having to prove, over and over, that that "formula" is not the key to a "good" golf course. It always amazes me as to how many people do think that way. Oh well, it seems that that much of our time is spent educating and convincing as it is designing.

« **Reply #40 on:** November 15, 2001, 12:02:00 PM »

I had the pleasure of starting my greenkeeping career at Stornoway Golf Club, In the Western Isles of Scotland. The course has very limited reources and has to cope with the harshest of climates, but provided a great learning experience. This course has 2 sets of back to back par 3's. Firstly you come to the 9th and 10th, and then believe it or not the 17th and 18th.
The Course has an excellent web site were you can find out much more detail. http://www.stornowaygolfclub.co.uk/index.htmlIt is a very short course built on hilly terrain, forced upon the islands golfers after their original links course was requisitioned by the Air Ministry to build an airport at the outbreak of World War II. Although short, it provides a pleasant challenge, but due to the climate in this part of Scotland is in its prime in mid/late September. The 9th in particular is a beautiful hole, and with the 10th provides a pleasent rest having just reached the highest point of the course. They also allow you to prepare for the 11th ( Dardanelles ), reputed to be amongst the hardest par 5's in Europe. It may not comply with most thinking on Course design but the closing par 3's provide a real test of concentration, particularly 18, and have been the ruin of many a card and the twist in the tale of many matchplay rounds. There have been attempts to re-route the order of holes, but these seem to meet with much protest amongst many members. Course is well worth a visit, and if it coincides with their Golf Week programme, you can be assured of great hospitality and entertainment.

« **Reply #41 on:** November 15, 2001, 12:10:00 PM »

Sorry, web address on last posting was incorrect. Here is the correct one; http://www.stornowaygolfclub.co.uk/

« **Reply #42 on:** January 09, 2006, 01:51:25 PM »

I think routing oddities like this need more attention, if not to make them more acceptable by the Par 72, 7000 yard back tee crowd.

With the Seaview thread bouncing around lately... what are some of the best uses of back to back par 3s. For example, at Seaview, a really short (sand wedge) hole is followed by a 3-wood shot monster of a par 3.

« **Reply #43 on:** January 09, 2006, 02:01:47 PM »

Same thing at the nine hole Glenbrook GC on the east side of Lake Tahoe. This was a nifty little course literally chainsawed out of a forest for the Glenbrook Hotel. Now if it still exists it's the centerpiece of a high end residential community on the lake.

Great contrasting par 3s -- #3 at 85 yards with no fairway, just one humungeous bunker, and Lake Tahoe close behind the large, flattish green. #4 at 225 yards slightly uphill to a large, flattish green.

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who knows if the course is still open. I worked in the shop there the summer of 1959. The 60-70 hour weeks cured me of any thoughts that the club pro business was a good one!

« **Reply #44 on:** January 09, 2006, 02:08:26 PM »

Kyle beat me to it. I played Seaview Bay just last week and #13 is a wedge shot yet #14 plays back into the prevailing wind at somewhere around 230 yards. I too went from hitting wedge to three wood. I thought it was a very interesting combination.

In contrast to that, Deerwood CC (Westampton, NJ; Alaimo and Blaukovitch) has back to back par 3 holes, #12 and #13. However, the holes play very similarly to each other and differ in yardage by about thirty yards. In fact, they're the only two holes that are cut through a wooded section of the property. The effect at Deerwood is no where near as enjoyable as Seaview due to the fact that at the former you are simply executing the same shot on consecutive holes, once with a seven iron and once with a nine.

« **Reply #45 on:** January 09, 2006, 02:09:25 PM »

Ballybunion's are #14 at 131 and # 15 at 216. 14 is inland slightly and roughly parallel to the water. #15 is back toward the water . BTW #12 is also a par three at 192 . It heads in the opposite direction from #14 , also roughly parallel to the water. In fact, there are 4 par threes in eight holes from #8 to #15.

« **Reply #46 on:** January 09, 2006, 02:15:16 PM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on November 06, 2001, 03:11:00 PM

Doug,<P>

.<P>I also asked if anyone knew of back to back to back par 5's.

Patrick:
No. 15 & No. 16 at Charles River Back to Back Pr 5's.
Best
Dave

« **Reply #47 on:** January 09, 2006, 02:21:25 PM »

Holes #3 & #4 at Stanford are now both par-3's. Holes #16 & #17 at the OC Lake are both par-5's.

« **Reply #48 on:** January 09, 2006, 02:33:10 PM »

Taking the In-n-Out reference, Cypress Point wins the "Double-Double" Award with both back to back par-3s and par-5s.

« **Reply #49 on:** January 09, 2006, 02:35:26 PM »

Ballybunion has two back to back 5's---#4 and #5 to go with the back to back 3's.

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