Shivas's cheater line

« **Reply #225 on:** May 21, 2007, 03:09:49 PM »

Quote from: TEPaul on May 21, 2007, 08:07:52 AM

My "Honor" proposal (Rule 10-1a) was considered by the USGA and the R&A and then the USGA/R&A Joint Rules Committee for six years!

Tom

When I saw that I thought HOORAY!, Tommy's finally won the good fight for a redefinition of "honor"! And then I checked out the rule book to read the sad truth. Maybe next time, Buckaroo.....

« **Reply #226 on:** May 21, 2007, 03:16:39 PM »

As Jim implies above, a cheater line is of value if and only if you can actually read the line of your putt, properly estimate what speed you need to hit the ball on that line, and then actually hit the ball on the line and with the right speed.

The only valid argument aginst the cheater line, which Shivas has inexplicably not yet brought up in this Herculean (or is it Sisyphean?) thread, is that it is plug ugly! Golf is (or at least ought to be) a beautiful game. Putting a cheater line on a fresh new Prov1x is like painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa.......

« **Reply #227 on:** May 21, 2007, 03:25:00 PM »

Richard:

That proposal on the Honor was a real story in and of itself. Even after I withdrew my proposal after about four years it did not stop there. The reason why I pulled my proposal is a pretty damn interesting story too.

That was all about fifteen years ago. Within the last four years one of the makers of the Rules asked for my file to look into reconsidering the proposal.

The entire thing not only rested on the proposal to allow the player with the Honor (in Match Play) the option of going first or second but it also asked what the purpose or the principle behind the Rule that he MUST go first really was. Frankly, for at least four years no one in golf's Rules was able to answer that question. And finally in desperation we got in touch with the real Rules oracle and the question was answered in spades, and I pulled my proposal immediately following that.

« **Reply #228 on:** May 21, 2007, 03:27:50 PM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on May 21, 2007, 02:37:40 PM

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on May 13, 2007, 09:55:56 PM

I accept your apologies in advance. [/b][/color]

Priceless.

« **Reply #229 on:** May 21, 2007, 03:32:29 PM »

"The only valid argument aginst the cheater line, which Shivas has inexplicably not yet brought up in this Herculean (or is it Sisyphean?) thread, is that it is plug ugly! Golf is (or at least ought to be) a beautiful game. Putting a cheater line on a fresh new Prov1x is like painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa......."

Ricardo the Magnificent:

Sometimes you actually do say something accurate and cogent and that remark above is one of those times.

That is precisely why the Rules eventually disallowed a caddie from remaining behind the player on the putting green DURING the stroke. The Rules makers basically decided it just didn't look right. That of course was specifically Johnny Miller's caddie, Andy Martinez.

Back then that prohibition was only in Rule 16---the putting green.

And then they began to wonder about why all these lady LPGA players had their caddies remain behind them during the stroke. So they actually asked Annika Sorenstam and what she told them was a violation of the Rules of Golf so the prohibition of the practice of a caddie behind the player merged into Rule 14 (Striking the Ball) and is now also prohibited "through the green"----or essentially ANYWHERE DURING the stroke.

« **Reply #230 on:** May 21, 2007, 03:42:11 PM »

Quote from: TEPaul on May 21, 2007, 03:25:00 PM

Richard:

That proposal on the Honor was a real story in and of itself. Even after I withdrew my proposal after about four years it did not stop there. The reason why I pulled my proposal is a pretty damn interesting story too.

That was all about fifteen years ago. Within the last four years one of the makers of the Rules asked for my file to look into reconsidering the proposal.

The entire thing not only rested on the proposal to allow the player with the Honor (in Match Play) the option of going first or second but it also asked what the purpose or the principle behind the Rule that he MUST go first really was. Frankly, for at least four years no one in golf's Rules was able to answer that question. And finally in desperation we got in touch with the real Rules oracle and the question was answered in spades, and I pulled my proposal immediately following that.

So don't leave us hanging... what was the principle behind it, which so convinced you?

« **Reply #231 on:** May 21, 2007, 04:02:38 PM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on May 21, 2007, 02:37:40 PM

John Cullum,

How convenient that you omitted reading and/or referencing the last two paragraphs of my opening post which initiated this thread. They were clearly focused on GCA.

Your memory is failing.

I read your initial post. It's a stretch. The real question is what were you looking for with your "inquiry?" You rarely ask questions without knowing what the answers are going to be.

« **Reply #232 on:** May 21, 2007, 04:10:07 PM »

from the USGA website

Rule 6-5

Lines or Arrows Used to mark Golf Ball

Q. It is recommended placing an identification mark on my golf ball. May I use a line or an arrow that will also help me align the club face?

A. Rules 6-5 and 12-2 state that each player should put an identification mark on his ball. Thus, the Rules do not limit the type of markings a player may put on the ball (i.e. arrows, lines, words, etc). Additionally, there is no penalty for using such lines to "line up" prior to a stroke on the putting green or any place else on the course.

BTW.. I didn't line up the label the last time i played. And likely won't anymore but I think it took LONGER to get aimed. Looking for a spot to put over and losing it walking in to address the ball. Hopefully it will get easier.

« **Reply #233 on:** May 21, 2007, 04:34:24 PM »

How did I get to be golf rules public enemy #1? Trust me, I ain't hacking into anything. I can barley "boot up" my own computer

.

« **Reply #234 on:** May 21, 2007, 04:37:25 PM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on May 21, 2007, 04:20:46 PM

Either that or Jim Franklin hacked into their computer system last night.

By the way, this is one of the funniest things I have read in awhile. I spit my soda on the screen thank you very little

.

« **Reply #235 on:** May 21, 2007, 04:54:17 PM »

Tell me something new

.

« **Reply #236 on:** May 21, 2007, 05:02:22 PM »

Dave never give in. You have the high ground, if for nothing more than this is the first thread on any internet discussion group anywhere that has people admitting someone has changed their mind. And brother I too feel your pain with all the time wasting, fiddling with cheater lines inflicts on us.

But me thinks there’s a bigger fish to chase here. I started to wonder if Willie Park (an excellent putter) ever mentioned aligning the ball in the first instruction book. I looked and the answer is NO. Why not Willie? I mean gutta's had manufacturing seams or lines stamped all over them and even featheries had the makers name written on them...

And then the penny dropped. The problem is, as long as you are allowed to clean wipe and place your ball, its entirely natural to want to position it, in a way that the rules allow that, gives you the maximum advantage. You, me and the Captin’ have a new target and then we’ll have a real game.

« **Reply #237 on:** May 21, 2007, 05:06:14 PM »

And pages ago Sean said he lines up putts using "Titleist".

Funny that, every time we've played he's been using Callaway balls.

« **Reply #238 on:** May 21, 2007, 05:39:24 PM »

Quote from: Mike McGuire on May 21, 2007, 04:10:07 PM

from the USGA website

Rule 6-5

Lines or Arrows Used to mark Golf Ball

Q. It is recommended placing an identification mark on my golf ball. May I use a line or an arrow that will also help me align the club face?

A. Rules 6-5 and 12-2 state that each player should put an identification mark on his ball.

Thus, the Rules do not limit the type of markings a player may put on the ball (i.e. arrows, lines, words, etc).

Apparently the writer has chosen to forget about Rule 8-2 b.
[/color]

Additionally, there is no penalty for using such lines to "line up" prior to a stroke on the putting green or any place else on the course.

Rule 8-2 b can be interpreted otherwise[/color]

Mike,

I'm trying to get into the USGA website to review the above quotes you've posted, but am having some trouble..

IF, the above is contained in the "Decisions" book, then the issue would seem to be resolved. Hopefully, they'd clarify the intent of 8-2 b.

But, if the above is published solely on the website and not in the "decisions" I would say it has NO official standing.

If it's not in the "Decisions" I would be curiouis to know why, and, while they cite 6-5, which doesn't include the above language and 12-2 which doesn't include the above language, why do they fail to cite 8-2 b, which includes language prohibiting the placing of a mark to aid in indicating the line ?

If they would put the above Q&A in the "Decisions" it would help to clarify the issue.[/b][/color]

« **Reply #239 on:** May 21, 2007, 05:44:12 PM »

Quote from: John Cullum on May 21, 2007, 04:02:38 PM

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on May 21, 2007, 02:37:40 PM

John Cullum,

How convenient that you omitted reading and/or referencing the last two paragraphs of my opening post which initiated this thread. They were clearly focused on GCA.

Your memory is failing.

I read your initial post. It's a stretch.
The real question is what were you looking for with your "inquiry?"
You rarely ask questions without knowing what the answers are going to be.

My initial thread was clealy related to architecture.

Feel free to apologize when you can come to grips with having to say that you were wrong and that you're sorry

« **Reply #240 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:00:41 PM »

Keep holding that breath Pat

« **Reply #241 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:01:09 PM »

I have a question. Let's say this is not addressed in the decision section, could I call a penalty on a competitor for using a line to aid in his alignment of a putt?

« **Reply #242 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:09:38 PM »

Jim,

You can call anything you want.

The issue would be decided by the officials on hand.

However, I suspect that they'd call the USGA due to the nuances of the issue.

The USGA should clarify the issue in the "decisions" book

Due to the broad nature of some of the language the issue would seem to need clarification

John Cullum,

I don't intend to exhale, unlike someone else I know who claimed that he never inhaled

« **Reply #243 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:09:55 PM »

No, because the player is not placing a mark to aid in aligning their putt...they are placing their ball and it has a mark on it that helps in aligning their putt...

« **Reply #244 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:10:39 PM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on May 21, 2007, 05:39:24 PM

Quote from: Mike McGuire on May 21, 2007, 04:10:07 PM

from the USGA website

Rule 6-5

Lines or Arrows Used to mark Golf Ball

Q. It is recommended placing an identification mark on my golf ball. May I use a line or an arrow that will also help me align the club face?

A. Rules 6-5 and 12-2 state that each player should put an identification mark on his ball.

Thus, the Rules do not limit the type of markings a player may put on the ball (i.e. arrows, lines, words, etc).

Apparently the writer has chosen to forget about Rule 8-2 b.
[/color]

Additionally, there is no penalty for using such lines to "line up" prior to a stroke on the putting green or any place else on the course.

Rule 8-2 b can be interpreted otherwise[/color]

Mike,

I'm trying to get into the USGA website to review the above quotes you've posted, but am having some trouble..

IF, the above is contained in the "Decisions" book, then the issue would seem to be resolved. Hopefully, they'd clarify the intent of 8-2 b.

But, if the above is published solely on the website and not in the "decisions" I would say it has NO official standing.

If it's not in the "Decisions" I would be curiouis to know why, and, while they cite 6-5, which doesn't include the above language and 12-2 which doesn't include the above language, why do they fail to cite 8-2 b, which includes language prohibiting the placing of a mark to aid in indicating the line ?

If they would put the above Q&A in the "Decisions" it would help to clarify the issue.[/b][/color]

Pat -

The info I posted was from the FAQ area on the USGA website

http://www.usga.org/questions/faqs/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=20&Rule=6

« **Reply #245 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:13:47 PM »

Quote from: JES II on May 21, 2007, 06:09:55 PM

No, because the player is not placing a mark to aid in aligning their putt...they are placing their ball and it has a mark on it that helps in aligning their putt...

8-2 b says otherwise.

Wouldn't it be akin to using a non-conforming ball ?

« **Reply #246 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:19:05 PM »

I don't see it that way Pat.

I see it as using a piece of your equipment to assist in the playing of a shot. The ball has not been modified to the point of non-conformance, and the mark (line) was not placed for a particular shot...

Maybe you have an opinion...if I told you I could gain alignment help from just a dot on the ball, would you think I should be disallowed from placing that in view?

« **Reply #247 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:28:13 PM »

Maybe someone should call a competitor on this so the USGA can finally make a decision that everyone can live with

. That way we can put this topic to rest.

« **Reply #248 on:** May 21, 2007, 06:54:39 PM »

I asked my local state golf assocaition rules guy. He said the INTENT of rule 8-2b is you can't put on mark on the COURSE to indicate the line of play. He conceded the rule was poorly worded.

Someone refered to the restrictions of replacing a lifted ball with mud on it. If the mud was between the ball and the clubface you don't have to put it back this way But you can't put the mud on the ground as this would be improving your lie.

I do not wish to argue this..... just reporting what i've learned.

« **Reply #249 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:08:33 PM »

Quote from: JES II on May 21, 2007, 06:19:05 PM

I don't see it that way Pat.

I understand that, but, you can't dismiss the abiguity of Rule 8-2 b by declaring that it's not possible to arrive at that interpretation.[/color]

I see it as using a piece of your equipment to assist in the playing of a shot. The ball has not been modified to the point of non-conformance, and the mark (line) was not placed for a particular shot...

Sure it was, it was placed there for each putt.[/color]

Maybe you have an opinion...if I told you I could gain alignment help from just a dot on the ball, would you think I should be disallowed from placing that in view?

If you told me that, I'd make sure that they had a room ready for you at HappyDale Farms, right next to TEPaul's room.[/color]

Mike McGuire,

How would he know the intent ?

It's difficult to reread 8-2 b along with 6-5 and 12-2 and draw an irrefutable conclusion that precludes all others.

Do I think the USGA meant a mark on the green, yes, but, once alignment aids were placed on the ball by the golfer, with a Sharpie, that fish has been inadvertantly caught in the legislative net, absent clarification.

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