[Scott_Burroughs]

It was the raters who were flawed, not the golf course.

 It could also be the rating system.  It could also ONLY be the rating system, which may not be a good measure of good architecture, which I believe it isn't solely meant to measure anyways.

They lacked the ability, the vision, the architectural understanding to grasp the genius of the routing, hole design and features.

Again with the rater bashing, when it could perhaps be the system (No, I'm not on the panel).  And the genius of the course is your opinion, shared by many who have played it on this site.  

The golf course remains BRILLIANT, the same can't be said for the raters  

 Does one smiley at the end apply to all of the rater bashing comments?

I'm very consistent

The GD panelists agree.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott Burroughs,

I'll accept your amendment to include, "the system"

I wasn't bashing raters, only evaluating the results of their findings  

[Jonathan Cummings]

Based on the GD Best Lists, I will be very curious where Black Rock places in the upcoming Golfweek modern rankings.  I have spent 23 years on and off in the Coeur d'Alene area, have long time belonged to a Coeur d'Alene club, have written about Coeur d Alene golf in Links, and have played everything in the Inland Empire.....except Black Rock.  Several of my rater friends have played BR and they have told me they were underwelmed.  They said, like Sanctuary, it was just a little too much and just not the place you would enjoy playing day in/day out.  My sense from Friar's Head (I haven't played there either!) is that it is just the opposite - a place you can't wait to get back too, which speaks volumes about course quality.

Here's some pure speculation on my part (I have absolutely no inside information!) - BR comes out in the 50-100 range on GW's pending modern list, FH is in the top 15....

JC

[THuckaby2]

Jonathan:

Knowing as many GW raters as I do, and knowing their tastes, well.... of course you know far better than I, but I'm guessing Friar's Head comes out Top 10 modern.  Then you all can tell us how smart GW raters are, and how stupid GD's are.  

At which time I'll remind you what a wuss cop-out it is to separate modern and classical.

Just saving you all the effort, and me.  

All in good fun, which is really what this should be....

TH

ps to George - as is the case with most things, I doubt we're all that far apart in this "conflict".  I just do honesly believe we come from different points of reference, different experiences.  I know I have learned a lot from your take... thanks!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's better pics of Black Rock than on its web site:

http://www.golfdigest.com/flash/bestnewcourses/blackrock.mov


Huck,

The Modern and Classic rating systems for GW have one rating criterion that is different.  And this way, we get to see 200 courses listed (hence more to discuss), which is probably more appropriate, since the number of courses in the country has practically doubled since the first GD Top 100 lists were published.

[THuckaby2]

Scott:

I'm not saying that GW's cop-out wuss system doesn't also have its benefits.  I am just saying that it is incredibly wussified to not compare Pacific Dunes to Pebble Beach, or Sand Hills to NGLA, as us MEN do.  

And I am just having some fun with this, in anticipation of future battles.  Me (and Joel) against the GCA world.... just about ALL of whom seem to now be GW panelists.

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

Hey, the GD lists were my gospel until about 2 1/2 years ago.  Well, not total gospel.  I played some of the GD fave archies' courses and that helped change my opinion....

[THuckaby2]

Scott, repent and ye still may be saved.  

Then again, I do understand the lure of the dark side.  It's force is powerful.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

I would say that it changes the nature of the relationship  

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- I see you appreciate the contributions of someone and you think they should act more aloof because of what he does at golfweek? Rather than the flow and art of the 16th hole at Garden City?

 See Pat, I like instant gratification and that means NOT waiting until someone is dead to show respect for thier contributions. If that is asskissing, what do you think I should get in return? A promotion? From golf bum to bummer. By what definition of asskiss would I profit from my statement?

 I think being obstinate and unbending in one's view on a subject in public, is very becomming. Big Boy!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jonathan,

Have you played Circling Raven (interesting name), which just opened this year in nearby Worley?  Gene Bates design.

[Lou_Duran]

I just saw a photo of Senator Clinton in Iraq then read Aclayman's not so private and but very personal message to Mr. Mucci.  God forgive me, but what flashed through my mind was very unbecoming.  Imagine waking-up in the middle of the night and finding Hillary and Adam at the foot of the bed, undressed, and peering at you.  The stinging feeling of inadequacy, not so much any repressed tendencies, was horrific!  Tuco and Katz, please help me!

BTW, one has to be careful in choosing a target for benign praise.  Contrary to what Carnegie says, some folks do not take fluffery kindly.  But there is nothing wrong in expressing genuine agreement with or appreciation of somebody's work.  Personally, without reservations, I think that Dr. Klein is the smartest, wittiest (sp), best playing, attractive, and otherwise greatest human being in the golf publishing industry.  I am sure that Mr. Whitten also rates highly on the list, but he would be at best a very distant second.  This is just a humble man's opinion without a dog in this fight.  However, I must disclose that I have met Dr. Klein and own all his books, where as my familiarity with Mr. Whitten is limited to reading his magazine articles and looking at pictures.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Hell, I'll probably get emails from a dozen architects saying "Right on!" since they probably all have used those words regarding the opinions of this group!

Jeff --

Don't mean to single you out; it's just that you singled yourself out with that economical, easily quoted line about "the opinions of this group" -- a sentiment I've heard innumerable times over the couple of years I've been dropping by here, and several times in this very thread.

I, personally, don't think "this group" HAS opinions! Aren't you a member of this group?

What are you talking about? Where is the unanimity?

Dan

Dan,

I just read your reply 163.  For the record, I've not gotten an email yet, nor even a response from Ron Whitten.  While it is technically true (you parser of words, you) that the group doesn't have an opinion, pe se, I think you catch my drift.

And while it is dangerous to group everyone here into "modern design haters" the level of those posts is considerable.  Add to those the wishful thinking posts (I'll bet Donald Ross would walk out of an environmentalists meeting, rather than design the course the way they dictate.....Hell, I would, too, but I'm more afraid of what - or who - would happen to me in jail than I would visiting Neverland.....) and the uninformed posts (hate to sound negative, but if when some say "Why couldn't they....." Hell, we would if we could, and that's a fact!

Add in the real venom spewed the direction of architects more commercially succsessful than I, and similarly not named Doak or Coore, and there is a pattern here!@

So, I won't lump all participants in a group.  To quote that famous golf architect, Dick Nixon, "That would be wrong....."

I will say the architects I know - and I know most of them - roll their eyes at the very mention of this site, mostly owing to the examples I gave above.  Of that, I can be sure I'm on safe ground.....

Anyway, I enjoy "the group" if that's possible.  I hope you recognize, that while I do get sensitive about archie - or Ron Whitten - bashing, all my posts, even on this thread are in good humor.  Just to be sure, I'll insert - ta da -

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

Sounds like I struck a nerve.

Aloof is not the proper word.

Recognizing one's position or power is important in the context of avoiding subtle, subconscious or overt quid pro quo situations.

Conflicts of interest, lack of independence and the failure to maintain an arms length are sometimes difficult to achieve because of the blending of various factors and influences.

The best analogy that springs to mind is the one I previously
stated, "You don't invite the food critics for the New York Times and Washington Post to your restaurant because you like the way they dress and/or speak"

Surely, you understand that analogy in the context of architectural critics/editors and golf courses.

I've learned to stick to my guns in life.
I've also learned to be flexible when presented with reasonable or factual, supplemental information.

There is nothing wrong with stability.  

[JBStansell]

Scott,

I played Circling Raven (about 15 miles or so South of Black Rock) earlier this year.  Circling Raven sits on the Coeur d'Alene Indian Reservation, and was built to draw patrons to its casino.

The one thing that struck me about Circling Raven was the number of "forced carries" over ground where balls could not be found.  As I remember it, there was not a single hole where the tee didn't require a carry of at least 100 yards, and at least one required a carry of nearly 200 yards.  As I didn't drive the ball particularly well, I found myself repeatedly hitting multiple shots off the tee.

Despite my own problems in executing shots, however, I did enjoy the routing.  The course sits on beautiful rolling ground (the "Rolling Palouse Country," as it is known to University of Idaho Vandals and Washington State Cougars), with a few holes running into and out of woods and over and alongside water.  The biggest negative was the 18th, which runs alongside the highway, and the need for carts - walking would be insane.    

[Jonathan Cummings]

Scott - yes I've played Circling Raven and liked it.  It's associated with an indian casino and built near a highway and railroad track.  The front nine has issues (mostly from surrounding commotion) but the back nine is diverse, isolated, quiet and almost mystical.

If I were to play the rating game from a personal standpoint Circling Raven would be on the same level as the Coeur d'Alene Resort, both a half step above the southern Idaho courses (Elkhorn, Hillcrest, etc), but a half step below Whitetail in McCall, which in my opinion is the best course in Idaho (excluding Black Rock).

I'll play Black Rock a bunch in the spring and will update my opinion then.

JC

[Scott_Burroughs]

Circling Raven on an Indian reservation makes sense.  Has that present participle name form they often use.

I would have asked you about Whitetail, but I had gotten the impression (from a private e-mail in the past) that you didn't venture south in the state much.

Ridgecrest in Nampa isn't too bad.  Quail Hollow in Boise has some fun holes.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
Talk about a double standard and bias!  So it was ok for NGLA to not care, but not for Ken and FH?  But thanks for the words, anyway, because they are completely appropriate for FH as well.  :

--FH doesn't have to, because the genius of the architecture is there.

--It is the raters who are flawed, not the golf course.

--They lack the ability, the vision, the architectural understanding to grasp the genius of the routing, hole design and features.

--The golf course is BRILLIANT, the same can't be said for the raters.

[texsport]

New Wife Scam !!

I have never focused too hard on the list, as this summer I skipped Pinehurst #2 and Harbour Town for other courses. However, I recently received a Golf Magazine Top 100 plaque as a gift. On it it has pegs that you place next to the courses that you have played. I am married to a Type A person, and when she saw it, she immediately jumped on board with the insanity. Our California trip next summer with the kids, I have planned on not taking the clubs. When she look at my plaque, she said, "Well you really should play 1 or 2 of the California courses when we are out there. Now I probably would prefer to play Rustic over Riviera, but if my wife forces me, then I will just have to follow orders !!

Nice finesse!

I've pulled the same scam on my wife with golf clubs. Whenever I need a new club it always seems to happen that she needs the same club( or so I attempt to prove to her). I reshaft my club for her, get her to hit her new club, rave about how well she hits it, save the pulled shaft and buy a new one for my bag.

Keeps her happy(I think), justifies my new club and allows me to keep a back up set in my wife's bag.

Texsport

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat
--Do you think it’s possible that FH’s policies negatively influenced its Best New ranking?

--Do all people have the same HUMAN NATURE?  Are all people motivated by the same things?

--Do you really think that Ken cares about the opinions of 10 +/- GD raters who might have played Friar’s Head, very few of which also played Black Rock and DN, and of the much greater number of raters that played BR and DN, few if any of which played FH?  If you think about it, that is exactly what the Golf Digest Best New Private awards are about.  Does that help you understand why many of us feel that Ken didn't care about this award?

--Don’t you think it’s highly likely that Ken considered this possibility when establishing FH’s policies with respect to raters?   Why then, if he cared so much about what Golf Digest and its raters think as you insist, would he establish such a policy?

I’m not aware of a single instance in which Ken or his members have said that they don’t care what OTHERS (your word) think about Friar’s Head. But the question is WHO are the OTHERS that they care about? Who are THEY that you refer to? Why do you assume (wrongly I might add) that THEY must include Golf Digest’s raters and their Best New awards?

You think that just because Ron Whitten played FH as Bill Coore’s guest and Brad Klein played as Ken’s guest, that they must care about the ratings.  Why?  My understanding is that Ron Whitten and Bill Coore have known each other for a long time.  Ron has said so himself.  So when Ron asks Bill to take him to FH, should Bill have told him that he would love to but can’t because he’s involved with Golf Digest?  In the same vein, as Brad Klein wrote, you are obviously not privy to his relationship with Ken, so why do you assume that Ken must care about the rankings just because Brad was his guest?

If they cared about the rankings, then why haven’t they facilitated and accommodated and wined and dined all of the raters that have tried to get on, just like many of the other clubs?  How do you reconcile that FACT? You aren't suggesting that Ron Whitten and Brad Klein alter the rankings are you?

We all know one thing for certain, Ken definitely cares about what his members and their guests think, not just about the golf course but about their entire experience at Friar’s Head.  So OTHERS would certainly include the members of Friar’s Head and if THEY told Ken that they were really disappointed that FH didn’t win GD’s Best New Private award, I suspect he might just tell them that FH is not right for them and give them their check back!   Pat, Can't you accept the fact that somebody MIGHT NOT care what YOU think?

[Mike Erdmann]

As much as I hate to keep this thread going, it's worth highlighting what I see as the flaws in the GD "Best New" ratings process.  

Since only 10 GD raters are required to see the course to make it eligible for the Best New rankings, the sample is WAY too small to make it at all meaningful.  It sounds like Friar's Head probably didn't get too many raters through since they don't allow non-sponsored guests (including raters) to play the course.  I know from a GD rater that as of late summer, Black Rock was really struggling to even get enough raters to make it eligible.  So making the assumption that each of them only had a few raters playing the courses, the opinions of just one or two raters could make ALL the difference in which course gets ranked 1st and which one gets ranked 3rd.  And that's really a shame that just one or two raters, who may or may not be well qualified to render an educated judgement, could have such an influence on what Golf Digest proclaims as Best New.

[Dan Kelly]

I know from a GD rater that as of late summer, Black Rock was really struggling to even get enough raters to make it eligible.

To what lengths would a course go if it were struggling to get enough raters to make it eligible?

Any of you raters care to answer that?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

Pat,
Talk about a double standard and bias!  So it was ok for NGLA to not care, but not for Ken and FH?  But thanks for the words, anyway, because they are completely appropriate for FH as well.  :

I believe that you phrased your question in an awkward manner, with a double negative, go back and read your question and my answer, my answer is the opposite of what you think it is.

That's no double standard, that's consistency.

I fear that you are too emotionally involved and prone to present extremes rather then the view I expressed.

To state that noone cares about how their golf course is perceived is blatantly foolish.

You may perceive that as Ken's attitude, I don't,
I think he takes great pride in what he's created.
And, I think, in the deep recesses of his mind, he knows that he has created a superior golf course and product, and the term "superior" inherently implies a comparison.

Please don't pretend to speak for every member at FH, it's foolish, inaccurate and disengenuous.

If you read the Greek tradgedies, Shakespeare and today's newspapers, you'll see that little has changed in "human nature" over these last few thousand years.  It's a fairly constant fabric that runs through generation after generation.

I"ll repeat my analogy, hopefully for the last time,

You don't invite the food critics for the New York Times and the Washington Post to your restaurant because you like the way they dress and/or speak.

Please, tell me that you understand that.

[Brad Klein]

Note to Adam and Lou,

you're both fired for the disgusting public display. It'll get you nowhere, sorry.

As for all of this, having been to Friars Head, Dallas National and Black Rock in the last year, I can't wait to open up the spread sheets and peer into the ballots. All three courses are interesting, carefully designed and impressive achievements in very different aspects.

[George Pazin]

I"ll repeat my analogy, hopefully for the last time,

You don't invite the food critics for the New York Times and the Washington Post to your restaurant because you like the way they dress and/or speak.

You might just invite them because they're your friends and you want to share something you helped to create with them.

Should you specifically not invite them because they happen to be critics as well?

Boca Rio's policy sounds like one of those things that sounds good but lacks some sense of balance. Would you seriously not invite someone to play if they were a close friend of yours & happened to be a rater?

As I said before, there is a gigantic difference between actively seeking someone's approval, and accepting praise or criticism when offered. Therein lies the difference between your position and slapper's, Tommy's, etc.

One can accept praise or criticism gracefully without really caring about it in the sense of changing one's opinion.

At least, some can.

Huck -

You're right, I'm sure we're not that far apart - you know by now it just gets me fired up when you speak for the masses. Saying folks are right or wrong is not the life or death matter you seem to be implying with your "there is no right or wrong in this field" approach. It's all opinion, but that doesn't mean one can't offer some sort of value judgement as to the validity of expressed opinions.

-----

Someone earlier stated the number one flaw with the system -it isn't necessarily the same people rating both courses. To really get a "valid" response (if there is such a thing in rating a subjective art), you certainly have to have the same folks rating the same things, with essentially the same criteria. As much as it pains me to say this, Matt's "regional bias" theory is quite sound.

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