Scott Burroughs,

I'll accept your amendment to include, "the system"

I wasn't bashing raters, only evaluating the results of their findings  

Jonathan:

Knowing as many GW raters as I do, and knowing their tastes, well.... of course you know far better than I, but I'm guessing Friar's Head comes out Top 10 modern.  Then you all can tell us how smart GW raters are, and how stupid GD's are.  

At which time I'll remind you what a wuss cop-out it is to separate modern and classical.

Just saving you all the effort, and me.  

All in good fun, which is really what this should be....

TH

ps to George - as is the case with most things, I doubt we're all that far apart in this "conflict".  I just do honesly believe we come from different points of reference, different experiences.  I know I have learned a lot from your take... thanks!

Scott:

I'm not saying that GW's cop-out wuss system doesn't also have its benefits.  I am just saying that it is incredibly wussified to not compare Pacific Dunes to Pebble Beach, or Sand Hills to NGLA, as us MEN do.  

And I am just having some fun with this, in anticipation of future battles.  Me (and Joel) against the GCA world.... just about ALL of whom seem to now be GW panelists.

TH

Scott, repent and ye still may be saved.  

Then again, I do understand the lure of the dark side.  It's force is powerful.

TH

Pat- I see you appreciate the contributions of someone and you think they should act more aloof because of what he does at golfweek? Rather than the flow and art of the 16th hole at Garden City?

 See Pat, I like instant gratification and that means NOT waiting until someone is dead to show respect for thier contributions. If that is asskissing, what do you think I should get in return? A promotion? From golf bum to bummer. By what definition of asskiss would I profit from my statement?

 I think being obstinate and unbending in one's view on a subject in public, is very becomming. Big Boy!

I just saw a photo of Senator Clinton in Iraq then read Aclayman's not so private and but very personal message to Mr. Mucci.  God forgive me, but what flashed through my mind was very unbecoming.  Imagine waking-up in the middle of the night and finding Hillary and Adam at the foot of the bed, undressed, and peering at you.  The stinging feeling of inadequacy, not so much any repressed tendencies, was horrific!  Tuco and Katz, please help me!

BTW, one has to be careful in choosing a target for benign praise.  Contrary to what Carnegie says, some folks do not take fluffery kindly.  But there is nothing wrong in expressing genuine agreement with or appreciation of somebody's work.  Personally, without reservations, I think that Dr. Klein is the smartest, wittiest (sp), best playing, attractive, and otherwise greatest human being in the golf publishing industry.  I am sure that Mr. Whitten also rates highly on the list, but he would be at best a very distant second.  This is just a humble man's opinion without a dog in this fight.  However, I must disclose that I have met Dr. Klein and own all his books, where as my familiarity with Mr. Whitten is limited to reading his magazine articles and looking at pictures.

A Clayman,

Sounds like I struck a nerve.

Aloof is not the proper word.

Recognizing one's position or power is important in the context of avoiding subtle, subconscious or overt quid pro quo situations.

Conflicts of interest, lack of independence and the failure to maintain an arms length are sometimes difficult to achieve because of the blending of various factors and influences.

The best analogy that springs to mind is the one I previously
stated, "You don't invite the food critics for the New York Times and Washington Post to your restaurant because you like the way they dress and/or speak"

Surely, you understand that analogy in the context of architectural critics/editors and golf courses.

I've learned to stick to my guns in life.
I've also learned to be flexible when presented with reasonable or factual, supplemental information.

There is nothing wrong with stability.  

Scott - yes I've played Circling Raven and liked it.  It's associated with an indian casino and built near a highway and railroad track.  The front nine has issues (mostly from surrounding commotion) but the back nine is diverse, isolated, quiet and almost mystical.

If I were to play the rating game from a personal standpoint Circling Raven would be on the same level as the Coeur d'Alene Resort, both a half step above the southern Idaho courses (Elkhorn, Hillcrest, etc), but a half step below Whitetail in McCall, which in my opinion is the best course in Idaho (excluding Black Rock).

I'll play Black Rock a bunch in the spring and will update my opinion then.

JC

Pat,
Talk about a double standard and bias!  So it was ok for NGLA to not care, but not for Ken and FH?  But thanks for the words, anyway, because they are completely appropriate for FH as well.  :

--FH doesn't have to, because the genius of the architecture is there.

--It is the raters who are flawed, not the golf course.

--They lack the ability, the vision, the architectural understanding to grasp the genius of the routing, hole design and features.

--The golf course is BRILLIANT, the same can't be said for the raters.

Pat
--Do you think it’s possible that FH’s policies negatively influenced its Best New ranking?

--Do all people have the same HUMAN NATURE?  Are all people motivated by the same things?

--Do you really think that Ken cares about the opinions of 10 +/- GD raters who might have played Friar’s Head, very few of which also played Black Rock and DN, and of the much greater number of raters that played BR and DN, few if any of which played FH?  If you think about it, that is exactly what the Golf Digest Best New Private awards are about.  Does that help you understand why many of us feel that Ken didn't care about this award?

--Don’t you think it’s highly likely that Ken considered this possibility when establishing FH’s policies with respect to raters?   Why then, if he cared so much about what Golf Digest and its raters think as you insist, would he establish such a policy?

I’m not aware of a single instance in which Ken or his members have said that they don’t care what OTHERS (your word) think about Friar’s Head. But the question is WHO are the OTHERS that they care about? Who are THEY that you refer to? Why do you assume (wrongly I might add) that THEY must include Golf Digest’s raters and their Best New awards?

You think that just because Ron Whitten played FH as Bill Coore’s guest and Brad Klein played as Ken’s guest, that they must care about the ratings.  Why?  My understanding is that Ron Whitten and Bill Coore have known each other for a long time.  Ron has said so himself.  So when Ron asks Bill to take him to FH, should Bill have told him that he would love to but can’t because he’s involved with Golf Digest?  In the same vein, as Brad Klein wrote, you are obviously not privy to his relationship with Ken, so why do you assume that Ken must care about the rankings just because Brad was his guest?

If they cared about the rankings, then why haven’t they facilitated and accommodated and wined and dined all of the raters that have tried to get on, just like many of the other clubs?  How do you reconcile that FACT? You aren't suggesting that Ron Whitten and Brad Klein alter the rankings are you?

We all know one thing for certain, Ken definitely cares about what his members and their guests think, not just about the golf course but about their entire experience at Friar’s Head.  So OTHERS would certainly include the members of Friar’s Head and if THEY told Ken that they were really disappointed that FH didn’t win GD’s Best New Private award, I suspect he might just tell them that FH is not right for them and give them their check back!   Pat, Can't you accept the fact that somebody MIGHT NOT care what YOU think?

I know from a GD rater that as of late summer, Black Rock was really struggling to even get enough raters to make it eligible.

To what lengths would a course go if it were struggling to get enough raters to make it eligible?

Any of you raters care to answer that?

Note to Adam and Lou,

you're both fired for the disgusting public display. It'll get you nowhere, sorry.

As for all of this, having been to Friars Head, Dallas National and Black Rock in the last year, I can't wait to open up the spread sheets and peer into the ballots. All three courses are interesting, carefully designed and impressive achievements in very different aspects.