[A_Clay_Man]

HELP- I just got a new puter and I think it is possesed by a Huck gremlin.

Sorry, I was so sappy but I just felt it important to recognize the difference.

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Jeff,

Are you and Ron roommates?  Who wears the pants in the family?

[THuckaby2]

HELP- I just got a new puter and I think it is possesed by a Huck gremlin.

Sorry, I was so sappy but I just felt it important to recognize the difference.

Slowly but surely, my influence has its effect... you're just lucky we don't see each other more often, Adam.  

SappyBoy

[Jeff Goldman]

Was "The Bull at Pinehurst Farms" [caramba  ] not eligible or just not considered that good?  Also, I noticed a Shoregate course in a top ten.  A couple years ago I think someone posted a "Shoregate" thread calling it one of the worst plans they'd ever seen.  And anybody know anything about the Keith Foster course listed under best affordable?

Jeff Goldman

[Pat Brockwell]

About the next 18 here at Black Mesa, Matt, we've been out walking and I'm thinking we haven't gotten to the best part of this site yet...   Also, thanks to everyone for your support and input, even Lou.  I like you better than Alan likes Clay.  Really.

[Lou_Duran]

Pat,

The reference to Alan and Clay is over my head.  However, I do like you, and I also like Black Mesa.  As I stated earlier, my concern for the course has to do more with its playability for the likely market.  Personally, with repeated play, I think that I could play the course well and really enjoy it.  I have no reservations about your ability to maintain the course, though I think that you will have your hands full on the greens.  Hopefully, the market will perceive BM as GD's raters and most of the NM outing participants have.  I look forward to a second course and the opportunity to play the original once again.  

[RJ_Daley]

Lou, I have a couple of questions just to try and understand what value you place on the ratings VS indepth discussion and opinions of people you know and have enjoyed the great game with at some of the best courses.  I hope that it will illustrate my point, but risk the old lawyer's admonishment not to ask a question you don't already know the answer to.

Say you are passing through Idawho on a business trip to Seattle by car.  You have one extra day to stop and play some golf along the way.  Sutton Bay in N.D. is on the way.  (I know my geography is off, but play along )  Now, ironically, Ron Whitten on his own has already written up Sutton Bay as a pretty fantastic golf course and facility.  (disregard that the best new list we are talking about is RWs baby, and instead take Jeff Brauer's testimonial as to how knowlegeable RW really is)  I have written up Sutton Bay quite highly too, for what it is worth.  Other contributors to our GCA here have also written highly of it.  Now inject one last thing.  One or two of our GCA doyens who you know, have played golf with and respect, really pans and downtalks Black Rock in Idaho, even though it received best new upscale private ahead of what else you know the others said about FH and DN that was highly favorable...  Sutton Bay hasn't been eligible yet to be ranked because it is the wrong year.  Which one you gonna play?  

If you answer Sutton Bay, I rest my case.
If you answer Black Rock, I'll drink a case.

Yours faithfully,
Elitist or Populist,
Shcitzophrenically yours,
RJ

[Lou_Duran]

Dick,

If the two respected GCAers also played Sutton Bay and raved about it, it would be a no-brainer.  As you presented it,  would probably still go to SB, though I would be conflicted.  But if you promise to share your case, I'll say Black Rock.  Ordinarily, I would go out of my way to play both, sacrificing sleep, health, business, and even domestic tranquility to get my fix.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- What super likes clay?  

If there was one consensus (besides all the great times) was that a great course could be had on the less dramatic property there. Nothing fancy, just well thought out bunkering with the subtle features that are already there. Simple.  

Congrats to you and Ed and the tribe.

[Dan Kelly]

Say you are passing through Idawho on a business trip to Seattle by car.  You have one extra day to stop and play some golf along the way.  Sutton Bay in N.D. is on the way.  (I know my geography is off, but play along )  ...

If you answer Sutton Bay, I rest my case.
If you answer Black Rock, I'll drink a case.

Dick --

You sure you haven't drunk a case already?

Sutton Bay is in South Dakota! I can't play along with geography THAT far off!

Now you know why I wanted to drive!

(Smileys all around.)

Yr. editor,

Dan

[THuckaby2]

There was consensus that a great course could be had on the land to the right of and stretching out from #10, oh yes there was.

There was less than consensus as to whether that course would be better than the existing course.

Contrarily yours,

TH  

[RJ_Daley]

Dan, this old white man sitting in his pajamas typing needs to wear a seat belt to keep from laughing my butt off and rolling on the floor.  I wouldn't have made a very good orrsman on the Corps of Discovery boat.  It was the Missouri Breaks where we were at wasn't it?

Lou, I'll make this even simpler for you.  It would be your last golf trip, and SB would have better liquor and grub back at the lodge...

Bottoms up fellows!

[JBStansell]

Mr. Daley,

Your last post has prompted me to enter this debate, although surely I'll regret it.  

While I have not yet played Black Rock (although I look forward to an invite), I do travel to Coeur d'Alene several times each year (where the in-laws live), and can attest to the genuine beauty of the area.  I sense that you have not been there, so I encourage you to stop by on your hypothetical drive to Seattle.  If you do, you'll find some pretty good courses besides Black Rock, including one of my favorite "cheap eats," Indian Canyon in nearby Spokane. Also nearby is The Coeur d'Alene Resort Course, a venue that is often criticized here but nonetheless worthy of a round if you're within 100 miles.  Also, just South of Black Rock, is a newer course, "Circling Raven," which is a tough test of golf when the winds are funneling accross the "Rolling Palouse" country.  

As for your hypothetical, in the "real world," the ratings are but one source of information.  I would also take into account the advice of others whose opinion I trust, including GCA Doyens who have played at least one but, even better, both courses. In other words, for me, I'd look at the ratings in making my choice, but they are certainly not the final word.    

[RJ_Daley]

As for your hypothetical, in the "real world," the ratings are but one source of information.  I would also take into account the advice of others whose opinion I trust, including GCA Doyens who have played at least one but, even better, both courses. In other words, for me, I'd look at the ratings in making my choice, but they are certainly not the final word.

Joe, there is too much equivocation there to suit my example.  I'm saying if you are going to use your only extra day to play, which set of information are you going to use to decide?  What value do you place on longstanding exchange of ideas an indepth discussion as to the merits of one course's architecture and enjoyment to play over another's from people you know have a passion and commitment for the topic.  Or, some consensus of unknown "raters" whose criteria is to some extent a compilation and tabulation of factors of conventional golf wisdom and popular tastes in the modern golf scene?

Joe, I have been through the area to trout fish and sight see.  I never had my clubs along however. I'll bring them when I return, but doubt I'll get the big invite to Black Rock, now...

[JBStansell]

I didn't mean to be equivocal.  I place the opinions of those I know and trust above and beyond the opinions of those I don't.  That being the case, I would play Sutton Bay based on the facts of your hypothetical.

[THuckaby2]

This is great stuff.  Excellent hypo, Dick.

But let's make it tougher.  Take out the views of Whitten, Daley and the rest as discussed in here, and say all you have is that one respected knowledgeable friend raves about Sutton Bay, and another equally respected and knowledgeable friend calls it overrated and not worth the long drive.  THEN what do you do?

Personally I'm with Joe - I value the opinions of people I know more than those I don't... but if they disagree... well then I would turn to other things - ratings being only one of them.

TH

[RJ_Daley]

Well Huck that really puts me on the spot if I read your question right.  I'd almost have to identify which trusted and respected friend raves and which one pans, since two of them are in disagreement.  Now, if the best new has it as BR, and a trusted and respected GCA contributor says it isn't all that, and two disagree on SB, I'm still going to SB, and in the back of my mind I'm asking myself, what was that Tullymore thing last year?

BTW for all of you whose eyes are glazing over, we are almost at the magical 10 page mark on this yearly "best new" thing.  It should all be over soon.

[Mike_Sweeney]

New Wife Scam !!

I have never focused too hard on the list, as this summer I skipped Pinehurst #2 and Harbour Town for other courses. However, I recently received a Golf Magazine Top 100 plaque as a gift. On it it has pegs that you place next to the courses that you have played. I am married to a Type A person, and when she saw it, she immediately jumped on board with the insanity. Our California trip next summer with the kids, I have planned on not taking the clubs. When she look at my plaque, she said, "Well you really should play 1 or 2 of the California courses when we are out there. Now I probably would prefer to play Rustic over Riviera, but if my wife forces me, then I will just have to follow orders !!

[DTaylor18]

Mike, you just gave me a thought.  All of our complaints and fixations on rankings here are wrong.  The rankings aren't for us.  They are for the people that know us, to help turn what they view as our insanity into some sort of sanity for them!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Slapper,

Is it impossible to accept that these FH members don't care about a magazine and its raters?

Yes, it's possible that SOME members don't care, but I wouldn't broaden that to ALL members don't care

Do you really think the members at Pine Valley, NGLA, Shinnecock, Cypress or Merion care about a magazine and its annointed "special people?" Do you think they care enough to encourage the magazine's people to visit and play the course?

YES

As many here have said, those places don't SEEK, NOR ENCOURAGE visits from ANY RATERS! That is a FACT!

That is quite different from what you have been posting

Boca Rio doesn't permit raters.  I'd say that policy speaks volumes about the members views on magazines, raters and attention

That is what I am trying to say. Friars Head doesn't SEEK, NOR ENCOURAGE a magazine or its raters to come visit.

Again, that's quite different from your earlier posts, perhaps had you clarified you earlier posts, typing what you really meant, it would have made the distinction apparent

Whitten (and I believe Brad Klein, but don't 100% know for sure) were not sought to come out and "rate" or "assess" the course.

I never said they were.  Could you cite where I'm alleged to have said that ?

Ron Whitten sought out Bill Coore and asked to see the property with him. Kenny (and Bill) are proud papas who plays with 100's of guests who want to see his creation.

You would admit that these two quests are rather unique in the golf and architectural world wouldn't you ?  
That they have a tremendous amount of influence and access to publications that reach large numbers of golfers,
and that you'd prefer to have them as supporters rather then detractors ??

Now, you can take a step back and seperate your psychoanalysis from the reality that these guys in Baiting Hollow just didn't care and didn't seek ANY publicity for their efforts.

You don't invite the food critic for the New York Times and the Washington Post to your restaurant because you like the way they dress and speak.

When you figure out the analogy, you will have seen the light

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

Pat, you're such an expert in human motivation, it's quite cheery to see you make summary judgments based upon nothing but wild surmise. You have no idea what you're talking about when you discuss my relationship to Friars Head, Ken Bakst or the invitations I get, don't get and decide to take up or turn down.

We've debated conflicts of interest, the retention of independence and the need for maintaining arms length, previously.

My views haven't changed since our initial debate on this issue, nor has your exalted position in the golf and publishing world.

I think you're a very bright, funny, knowledgeable individual, but to cloak yourself in the 'common man' perspective is to deny your position and influence in the golfing and publishing world.

And as such, there is an implicit or inherent distinction in your visit to Friar's Head, or any other club, and the potential consequences of that visit, versus a visit by the common" golfer.

You really think the world is waiting breathelessly over these awards and that it drives people in all of their phone calls, invites and rounds of golf for years? Get a life.

Those are your words and conclusions, not mine.
I never stated that ?  You need to pay attention to what I post, and not what Slapper alleges my position and words are.
There is a critical distinction

As for Ron Whitten, while I have disagreements with his reticence to make judgments and think he could be a bit more critical and pedantic in his reviews, the fact that he is the object of so much scorn and criticism here tells me that he's doing his job well. There is some weird idea going around GCA that there's a magic formula for ratings and that if they got it right it would both lead to the desired results that you want and also be widely accepted. Nothing could be further from the truth. That doesn't mean anything goes, but it does mean that people judge things very differently. The fact is that GCA tastes in architecture tend towards a distinct minority of the business and of the market. I happen to think they are good values but I also know that many people disagree with them.

I've never bashed Ron Whitten on this site, so I must assume that you are referencing other individuals, but have chosen to address me regarding Ron Whitten for some strange reason.

My only public disagreement with Ron Whitten was over his review of Jasna Polana, which he called a modern day
Winged Foot.  I wrote to him and the editor of the magazine that the article appeared in, and expressed a strong counter view

For two years almost everybody has been touting Friar's Head, discussing its eligibility date for ranking purposes, saying how it will be # 1 and a top 10 golf course.  
And then, when the rankings are about to come out, the same people are saying, the rankings are bad, Friar's Head doesn't care about them, we don't care about them, they don't mean a thing.

Well fellas, you can't have it both ways.

I've expressed my views on Friar's Head on this site and to Ken Bakst personally, I think it is a wonderfu golfing facility, in every way, but my issue isn't with Friar's Head, or with the magazines or the ratings, it's with the inconsistency of the positions of many on this site, the rejection of "Human Nature" and the denial of a desire to be respected by your peers.

As I said, you don't invite the food critics for the New York Times and the Washington Post to your restaurant because you like the way they dress and speak

P.S.  Kissing Brad Klein's ass in public is unbecoming.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, You have stated on numerous occasions that NGLA is your favorite golf course. Does it really bother you that its ranked only 19th by Golf Digest?

If Golf Digest decided to elevate the ranking, would you like it more? If Golf Digest demoted its ranking, would you like it less? If so, is it human nature for NGLA to not care about its ranking? Why then for so many years did it not take any action to improve its ranking when it was when it was rated much lower? You can't have it both ways!  

[George Pazin]

For two years almost everybody has been touting Friar's Head, discussing its eligibility date for ranking purposes, saying how it will be # 1 and a top 10 golf course.  
And then, when the rankings are about to come out, the same people are saying, the rankings are bad, Friar's Head doesn't care about them, we don't care about them, they don't mean a thing.

Well fellas, you can't have it both ways.

YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN!

THESE TWO STATEMENTS ARE NOT CONNECTED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM!!

My college philosophy professor (Phil 05 - Formal Logic) could see the gaping hole in this argument from a mile away.

One statement references how posters on this site feel about FH, the other references how the members of FH feel about outside recognition of their course.

Of all the things I've objected to regarding your posts over the years, this might just be number 1!!!

There is no connection between these two statements other than what exists in your head.

When you understand this distinction, you will understand why you create more poster turmoil than anyone else.

Some might argue that's a good thing. I might, even, depends on what mood you catch me in. I just hope everyone else out there see the flaw in this line of reasoning.

P.S. to Huck - I'm heading home, but I've been thinking about our conflict all day while loading shirt after shirt. I'll try to finalize some thoughts shortly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

Pat, You have stated on numerous occasions that NGLA is your favorite golf course. Does it really bother you that its ranked only 19th by Golf Digest?

NO.  
I've always had a better eye then their collective vision


If Golf Digest decided to elevate the ranking, would you like it more?

NO

If Golf Digest demoted its ranking, would you like it less?

NO

If so, is it human nature for NGLA to not care about its ranking?

NO

Why then for so many years did it not take any action to improve its ranking when it was when it was rated much lower?

Because NGLA didn't have to, the genius of the architecture was always there.

It was the raters who were flawed, not the golf course.

They lacked the ability, the vision, the architectural understanding to grasp the genius of the routing, hole design and features.

The golf course remains BRILLIANT, the same can't be said for the raters  

You can't have it both ways!

I don't, I'm very consistent

George Pazin,

There is no flaw in my position, when the same people speak out of both sides of their mouth, it's self evident.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

For those in the know, is it true that Gulph Mills does not permit raters a la Boca Rio and possibly other private clubs?

Steve

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