It kills me not to be a Cuscowilla (which I have played and adore) but I won't be.  We're concluding our church stewardship campaign (on which I work) that Sunday, my son has a really, really important baseball tryout for a spring team that weekend, and on top of that I just simply can't afford it.

But man, are you gonna love that golf course!

If I'm gonna be Faxon, I'll have to have a LOT of drinks first.  Putting sober, I AM Joe Hack!

TEP:

Once again this is pretty funny.  Oh hell yes I am all about the mystical in golf - some guys call me "spooky" for how I refuse science and play by feel and just rely on what the golf gods allow - but my spookiness goes exactly opposite from yours in putting!

That is, I have had plenty of flat, or relatively flat, putts that I have stood over and just had the feeling wash over me that it was as good as in.  Sure enough, in it goes.  I can't ever remember that happening on a wildly contoured putt.

Which might explain why you and I look at this issue differently, huh?

 

"Which might explain why you and I look at this issue differently, huh?"

Tom;

When are you going to come to understand this has nothing to do with just that you and I look at this differently? It has everything to do with the fact that I'm just right and you're just wrong! Please try to come to understand this fact at some point in the not too distance future and then I guarantee you that both life and golf will become far more logical to you---and you should be at peace with it all---as I am!

"Which might explain why you and I look at this issue differently, huh?"

Tom;

When are you going to come to understand this has nothing to do with just that you and I look at this differently? It has everything to do with the fact that I'm just right and you're just wrong! Please try to come to understand this fact at some point in the not too distance future and then I guarantee you that both life and golf will become far more logical to you---and you should be at peace with it all---as I am!

TEP:  believe me, on damn near all issues that's EXACTLY how I treat things.  That's why my posts tend to be bunched on relatively few topics.  On the ones where that occurs - which is the vast majority - all you get is silence from me.  And the group is is happy, and I am happy, and the golf world keeps spinning.

 

I tried to make the same point as Shivas maybe 5 pages ago. His example is even clearer, though. By your (ridiculous) thesis, wind should indeed affect Tiger more than me, because the effects of wind are certainly more random than the influence of a highly contoured green.

Dye's greens at Mystic Rock are not even remotely close to being flat greens. They are the only Dye greens I've had the pleasure of playing (saw The Ocean Course in person, but it was closed because they didn't want me tearing it up before the World Cup last year ), but my gut feeling is that his greens are more severe than most.

Look at that list again - Faxon didn't three putt at some flatter greens (relatively speaking) and he didn't 3 putt at Mystic Rock (which in my book have very good contour). I guarantee you that I will 3 putt on flat fast greens, but I will 3 putt more often on contoured greens with any kind of speed whatsoever.

The only way your thesis holds is if the flat greens are so dead flat that they are a joke, and the contoured greens are contoured so much that they blow away anything in existence currently in the world, so much that putting becomes a flat out (no pun intended) random occurence.

I have seen - heck, I see, every time I play, lousy golfers 4 putt easy greens. You are kidding yourself if you think that they aren't going to putt that much worse on highly contoured greens. There is a lower bound to how low you can go, but there is no upper bound for how high. That is a big part of what you are missing, with your highly fallacious assumption that a lousy putter isn't going to do much worse on highly contoured greens.

I will state my generalized thesis again - anything that makes golf more difficult for the top player will make the game incrementally harder for the lousy player. If you think Fax is going to 3 putt more often on highly contoured greens, then a lousy putter will 3 putt way more often. And no made up numbers by you or Rich can convince me otherwise. If we had a real life putt off and the numbers supported you, I'd be the first to say I was wrong, but I'm sure not accepting hypothetical numbers as some sort of proof.

One thing I disagree with Shivas on - you are in fact all wet on this one!

 

JK:

Oh good lord is that post the farthest from the truth in the history of this board.  It's not your fault, you haven't been forced to hear my tails of woe enough.  But my god, I get to play with single-digit handicappers about once every 25 rounds - usually it's the rounds with GCA-related folks.  I play with SO many bad players, of all degrees of horrid ability, that if any thing I think I have a uniquely qualified perspective on this.

And yes, they do 4putt.  But truly not that often.  When they four-putt, and worse, it's typically a situation like #11 Pasa with the pin in the back - you know, infinite putting?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen - it does.  Just not enough to overcome the other factors.

TH

I tried to bow out many pages ago, but you accused me of placing too much value on my time, so I decided to show you just how little my time is worth.

Is there a Mr. Pelz in the house?

His head exploded about 6 pages ago.

I'll try to bring this thread back to life or put an end to it one.

Gentlemen, far and wide, flat greens do not make putting easier for the better player.  It does not necessarily make it easier to get approach shots closer to the hole.  I find it easier to get approach shots closer to pins on greens with more contour because I can use slopes to get the ball closer to the hole.  Most everything that has been mentioned here assumes that the average player is getting the ball as close to the hole with approach shots.  Even if you were to put the the good player and the average player the same distance from the hole, lets say 30 feet on contoured greens, the better player is going to beat up the average player over 18 holes because the good player would proabably not 3 putt any and would make some.  The average player is going to three putt more often than on flat greens and will not likely make any putts on contoured greens.  The average player has much more of a chance to make putts on flatter greens and will not three putt as often, whereas the better player cannot use the advantage of feel on flat greens and I propose they will not make any more on flat greens and will still not three putt.  

This said, the average player will have a much greater chance of hitting approach shots close to flat greens, and the contours of a countoured green will more often reject a ball from a pin when played without the precision a better player can, further accentuating the advantage a better player will have on contoured greens.  The length of the course also will have an impact, as will factors of wind.  

When would I be most afraid of an average player and when would I give less shots?  On a longish course with flat greens.  I am not going to make as many birdies and the average player will both be able to get approach shots closer and they will have a greater chance of getting the ball up and down when they miss a green.  When I look at courses to qualify for USGA events on, I do much better on greens with contour.  Flatter greens bring the average/good player back into the game.  

Keep in mind a complete game of golf is not putt putt, it also requires that you hit shots into these greens that are being dicussed.

Sure...except that he is wrong.   I still believe that he would beat me worse at Torrey Pines than at Pasa because of the greens...

bumping for MWP - have a good laugh.