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Steve Lapper

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #150 on: December 03, 2003, 07:44:10 AM »
[Slapper,

And I did not have sexual relations with that woman either!!

Bill Clinton
Quote


Bill,

    Turn in any scores recently? Play by any rules recently? Bang the ugly bitch recently? Get a job! ;D
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #151 on: December 03, 2003, 08:50:55 AM »
RJ (and George)

For the most part, guilty as charged.  I used RJ's post - where I disagreed that the GD readership needed any help in knowing what they like , and the idea that Ron "tweaks" the ratings as editor - to touch on a few other topics.

The simple fact is that Ron has not conducted the best new survey for at least three years now.  A panel at GD does the work now (it got too big for a one man job) and Ron simply writes the article.  I sense he puts his own opinions in that from time to time, tweaking his own magazine in the process, but thats another story.

Some other related opinions - RW wants people to think about architecture, but never has told people how to think about it!  He knows that the FH style works some places, ANGC works some places, and that there is no formula for style that should be forced everywhere, just as there should not be formula golf holes.....I share that opinion.

RW always evaluates architecture, not architects.  RW knows that every architect has both good and bad work.  Period!  Of all people, RW will call a big name designer course bad, and a lesser known archies course good, if the holes are good!  That has been a great service to all architects - and his readers.  If all his panelists and all participants here did the same, it would be a better world and internet site!  


RW is, IMHO, the most passionate about golf design of anyone here.  Hard to prove, but he is certainly in a tie with someone for first place.  I'm glad George thinks I have passion, too.  

I believe in the power of numbers, vs Matt's suggestion of Ron simply making it "one man's list."  I know they have had problems getting panelists to remote places, and also there is some randomness in that one panelist sees some courses, other panelists see others.  But I don't think having even a dozen "intelligencia" who travel together and see all likely candidates would necessarily give a better indication of what's the best is out there, it would probably give less indication of that, and more indication of that groups limited perspective.  

No matter what system they implement,  its not going to be perfect.  Same of course, with Brad Klein and anyone else who attempts it.  (The white guy in pajamas top 100?)

These guys are passionate, and try to do the best they can.  Its IMHO "intellectually lazy" to sit at a computer and quickly type out objections or suggestions for improvements when you don't have all the facts, or don't really have any stake in the process, other than not liking the winner.

If GD tweaked its rules every year, trying to get a more "suitable" winner, and around the office, that rule change was commonly called "the Friar Head" rule, the "East Coast Bias Rule" or the Fazio Shouldn't Win Each Year Rule" (just some examples that could happen!) the system would be fatally flawed, IHMO.

Granted, thats all a lot to infer from RJ's post!

Lastly, RJ, reread my post's PS - While you may have brought up the GCA and Pompous in the same sentence, but what I'm saying there is Ron used those words.  I've used those words.  Hell, I'll probably get emails from a dozen architects saying "Right on!" since they probably all have used those words regarding the opinions of this group!

okay, rant over again........

PPS - For those wondering, I am not typing this in pajamas, but rather sweats and my Dallas Stars Jersey!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2003, 08:51:47 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brad Klein

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #152 on: December 03, 2003, 09:42:34 AM »
Pat, you're such an expert in human motivation, it's quite cheery to see you make summary judgments based upon nothing but wild surmise. You have no idea what you're talking about when you discuss the invitations I get, don't get and decide to take up or turn down.

You really think the world is waiting breathelessly over these awards and that it drives people in all of their phone calls, invites and rounds of golf for years? Get a life.

As for Ron Whitten, while I have disagreements with his reticence to make judgments and think he could be a bit more critical and pedantic in his reviews, the fact that he is the object of so much scorn and criticism here tells me that he's doing his job well. There is some weird idea going around GCA that there's a magic formula for ratings and that if they got it right it would both lead to the desired results that you want and also be widely accepted. Nothing could be further from the truth. That doesn't mean anything goes, but it does mean that people judge things very differently. The fact is that GCA tastes in architecture tend towards a distinct minority of the business and of the market. I happen to think they are good values but I also know that many people disagree with them.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2003, 06:57:39 PM by Brad Klein »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #153 on: December 03, 2003, 09:46:45 AM »
re: Brad Klein's last post -

A good example of a professional writer getting to the point I was trying to make much more quickly..... ::)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

THuckaby2

Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #154 on: December 03, 2003, 09:49:01 AM »
The fact is that GCA tastes in architecture tend towards a distinct minority of the business and of the market. I happen to thing they are good values but I also know that many people disgaree with them.


Truer words have never been spoken in here - well said, Brad.  It continues to amaze me that people in here don't get that... As good as the values in here may be - and I agree that they are - they are such a minority that it seems silly to me to consider them to be absolutely "right" and the huge majority to be so "wrong", as so many in here seem to think.





George Pazin

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #155 on: December 03, 2003, 09:50:54 AM »
Good posts, indeed, from Brad & Jeff (much better than your first effort, Jeff :)).

Regarding approval from others, I think there is tremendous difference between actively seeking the approval of others and simply acknowledging it and welcoming it on a well deserved effort. Therein lies the difference between Patrick & slapper with regards to FH, I suspect.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #156 on: December 03, 2003, 09:52:55 AM »
George,

Good thing you let me take a mulligan. ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve Lapper

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #157 on: December 03, 2003, 09:55:27 AM »
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

Thank you Brad and George for such compelling evidence and proof that Pat has no real clue here!

slapper
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

George Pazin

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #158 on: December 03, 2003, 10:04:51 AM »
Huckster -

It amazes me just as much that you continually reject the notion that your "regular buddies" are seemingly immune from learning about good golf, or at least what we on this site consider good golf. Maybe if there were more Rustic Canyons out there, and more Wintonbury Hills, and more Baronas, etc., the tastes of everyone would change to reflect this.

Jeff -

You have an unlimited supply from me. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim_Michaels

Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #159 on: December 03, 2003, 10:20:30 AM »
Brad Klein,

Surveys can be done properly or improperly. From what Golf Digest shows us about the questions on their ballot and their process for calculating the results, there are tremendous problems with their methodology. This is a matter of simple statistics, not  the ranting and raving of GCA lunatics.

As for your own survey, since you do not share any of your data, we have no means to evaluate its soundness.

I could bore the treehouse with an analysis of the GD method vs the GM method, but the end result is that if I used the GD survey methods to support an academic paper, it would get an F.

THuckaby2

Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #160 on: December 03, 2003, 10:25:05 AM »
Huckster -

It amazes me just as much that you continually reject the notion that your "regular buddies" are seemingly immune from learning about good golf, or at least what we on this site consider good golf. Maybe if there were more Rustic Canyons out there, and more Wintonbury Hills, and more Baronas, etc., the tastes of everyone would change to reflect this.


George:  it amazes me that that amazes you.   ;)  See, it's a matter of taste, not exposure.  What we like here - the Rustic Canyons, Wintonbury Hills, Baronas - just plain doesn't match what they like, and no amout of exposure to those types of courses is going to change that.

They love Spanish Bay, Lost Canyons, Sandpines, etc... courses reviled here.  They were unimpressed with Rustic, for better or for worse...

And there really is nothing wrong with this.  What's so bad about the Paulian Dogma (big beautiful world of golf, room for one and all)?

TH

Dan Kelly

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #161 on: December 03, 2003, 10:28:03 AM »
Hell, I'll probably get emails from a dozen architects saying "Right on!" since they probably all have used those words regarding the opinions of this group!

Jeff --

Don't mean to single you out; it's just that you singled yourself out with that economical, easily quoted line about "the opinions of this group" -- a sentiment I've heard innumerable times over the couple of years I've been dropping by here, and several times in this very thread.

I, personally, don't think "this group" HAS opinions! Aren't you a member of this group?

What are you talking about? Where is the unanimity?

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #162 on: December 03, 2003, 10:33:23 AM »
See, it's a matter of taste, not exposure.  What we like here - the Rustic Canyons, Wintonbury Hills, Baronas - just plain doesn't match what they like, and no amout of exposure to those types of courses is going to change that.

They love Spanish Bay, Lost Canyons, Sandpines, etc... courses reviled here.  They were unimpressed with Rustic, for better or for worse...

Thankfully, this is just your opinion - it does not happen to be mine.

What makes you think you speak for the masses any more than anyone else on here?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2003, 10:34:36 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

THuckaby2

Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #163 on: December 03, 2003, 10:43:53 AM »
George:

Good point - I can't speak for the masses any more than any one else can, or ought to.  But this is not my "opinion" - it is reporting of facts that I have seen, through many years of experience.  If this doesn't match what you have seen and experienced, well then bully for you!  It does remain a big beautiful world of golf with room for one and all.   ;D

The main point here is that there remains no "right" or "wrong" about this, and it surprises me that you continue to believe that what's espoused in here is so necessarily "good".  Just as no one ought to speak for the masses, also no one ought to make that value judgement.

Are the various people I know to prefer Lost Canyons to Rustic Canyon simply idiots that need to learn?  THAT is what I object to - why can't their tastes be equally valid to ours?

TH

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #164 on: December 03, 2003, 10:48:02 AM »
"We" (in general, not unanimously) are a minority, that's for sure.  My mom and stepfather like lots of water features, beauty, etc., in their courses.  When I told them I wanted to play Wilmington Municipal, they cringed like "Why would you want to play there?" as they've played it weren't overly impressed.  We do agree on a love for Tobacco Road.

Just this past holiday weekend, I was talking with my uncle who took golf back up in the past year or so after perhaps a 40 year layoff.  We were talking about courses in the Baltimore area and he was enamored with Greystone, because of its beauty and difficulty as being the best in the entire state.  He also talked about that "U.S. Open probable" course east of town (I knew he was referring to Bulle Rock) as supposedly being awesome or maybe the best in the state, since there was talk of it being U.S. Open-worthy.  He also had mentioned another course (I knew it was the Davis Sezna course, "Mountain" something) as being supposedly great and definitely expensive.  I mentioned Beechtree and Five Farms and otherwise treaded lightly on the subject and didn't press too hard.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2003, 10:50:04 AM by Scott_Burroughs »

George Pazin

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #165 on: December 03, 2003, 10:54:55 AM »
Good God, now you're playing the "all opinions are equally valid" card?!? You've spent too much time with Rich the Nihilist Goodale.

I'll explain later - got shirts to print.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

THuckaby2

Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #166 on: December 03, 2003, 10:55:14 AM »
Scott - the tastes of your relatives tend to match those of just about everyone I've talked to our played with outside of this discussion group... There remains nothing wrong with how they view golf courses, as different as their views might be from the general taste in here.

That's really all I am trying to say, why I liked what Brad said.

TH

THuckaby2

Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #167 on: December 03, 2003, 11:01:08 AM »
Good God, now you're playing the "all opinions are equally valid" card?!? You've spent too much time with Rich the Nihilist Goodale.

I'll explain later - got shirts to print.

It's not so much that all opinions are equally valid - it's more that none are necessarily "right" or "wrong".  To me it's offensive to say that anyone just needs to study more or see more and then he'll come over to what's "right" or "good", about golf courses.

If an expert tells me a bottle of wine has been rated 98 by a panel of experts, and I just plain don't like it, will I come to like it if I get exposed to more highly-rated wines?  Maybe.. but then again maybe I don't like a lot of tannins and never will...

I look forward to your explanation, in any case, but I believe I have a pretty good idea what you're going to say.  Surprise me and don't just say that experts and aficionados know better than neophytes.  Maybe they do, about how to play the game... but about which course is necessarily "better"?  That's going to be a tough sell.

TH

Brad Swanson

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #168 on: December 03, 2003, 11:08:49 AM »
Tom,
   I'm sure you've heard the saying.

Opinions are like *ssholes, everyone's got one, and they usually stink.

Seems quite fitting here. :D

Cheers,
Brad

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #169 on: December 03, 2003, 11:19:36 AM »
If an expert tells me a bottle of wine has been rated 98 by a panel of experts, and I just plain don't like it, will I come to like it if I get exposed to more highly-rated wines?

Good example, Tom.  Two of my favorite examples of "experts don't know jack - or at least can't tell me what to like" are: art and music.

My favorite satire on art "experts" was a Murphy Brown episode a few years back when she literally took to task the whole "my 2-year old could paint that supposedly great piece of art" deal.  She had her child do a painting, had it hung in a show, and one of the "experts" ended up thinking it was masterful.  Granted it was made up, but it reflected my thinking.  Art is completely opinion.  You like what you like.

Music is an even bigger deal, as it means so much to me.  I like what I like, and no "experts" (or critics) can tell what I will like.  By far, the biggest difference between music "experts/critics" and me is lyrics.  Almost every music critic talks about the lyrics, the songs' meaning, and a little about the music itself.  Lyrics, for the most part, don't mean jack to me.  Music is almost always about the music to me.  In probably 75% or more of my favorite songs, I've never once paid attention to what they're trying to say in the lyrics IF I can even understand what their singing in the first place.

My brother-in-law is a musician and I told him this and it floored him.  I knew his music was all about the lyrics (he's kinda alternative folk), and that it was deeply personal to him (and that much of it had to do with my sister).  Big deal.  Do I like the music? (Some of it is OK, some not).
« Last Edit: December 03, 2003, 11:20:41 AM by Scott_Burroughs »

Lou_Duran

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #170 on: December 03, 2003, 11:20:01 AM »
George-

There are many, many golfers, some far better than you and me, who pay very little attention to gca.  Out of my original group of 20+ guys, there is only one whose eyes don't glaze over when I try to discuss certain design features or the neat things about a Pacific Dunes, Pasatiempo, or The Golf Club.  Bring up a putt somebody made to turn all the bets, a 350 yard drive, or maybe the attractive new attendant at the half way house and you get much more attention.  People play golf for many different reasons, and I dare say that a very tiny minority approach the game as art aficionados look at the Prado or the Lourve.

In my part of the country, golf is very popular in part because it is such a good, easy vehicle for gambling.  At my home club, it is not unusual for five guys taking a cart each and playing 18 holes in three hours or less @ $100/hole.  There is about as much architectural studying going on in these games as there is in the subsequent gin games that follow for an equal amount of time.

Dick-

The tone of your responses suggests a couple of the major underlying problems of the egalitarian/populist mentality- contempt for those whose station in life may appear to be better, and a degree of smugness and superiority of knowledge and intellectual prowess. ;)

I don't know that it is necessarily bad to be a so-called "trophy hunter".  Most of us do not have unlimited time and resources to approach the total inventory of 16,000+ courses in the U.S. and play whatever we run into next.  The ratings in a way are like a consumer guide which allows us to make more efficient, intelligent decisions.  Just as I do not go to the store and wander aimlessly, when I travel I seek input and the GW and GD ratings are helpful.

Your point about Tom Paul and Mike Cirba is well taken, though with a worsening bout with ADD, I have a hard time undestanding the former, and I seem to have some stylistic differences with the latter.  However, if either of these guys recommended a course highly, I would make every effort to play it when in the area.  The same is true for any number of GCAers whose tastes in architecture seem to be much more narrow than my own.

As I stated before, I've played Dallas National and believe that it is a world-class golf course.  From what I've heard, read, and seen in pictures of Friar's Head, it is in the same class.  I know little of the GD winner in Idaho so I can't comment.  But if I was visiting Idaho during the right time of the year, that course would be at the top of my list, and it would be surprising if I didn't find it to be as "advertised".


     

     


Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #171 on: December 03, 2003, 11:32:43 AM »
George-

In my part of the country, golf is very popular in part because it is such a good, easy vehicle for gambling.  At my home club, it is not unusual for five guys taking a cart each and playing 18 holes in three hours or less @ $100/hole.  There is about as much architectural studying going on in these games as there is in the subsequent gin games that follow for an equal amount of time.


OHMYGAWD!  and my son plays there?  I wondered why he wanted an advance on the allowance......... ::)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lou_Duran

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #172 on: December 03, 2003, 12:15:03 PM »
Jim Michaels-

You are not teaching a government class on U.S.-European relations at the University of Texas @ Austin, are you?  The required "elective" course as is being taught should be entitled "Bush is an illegitimate dumb---k who is not fit to hand-out towels in the men's restroom in any European subway station".  My son, a senior-straight A student in Business Honors and Finance, who has studied in Europe for a semester, worked for a major financial institution in London for a summer, and already has a job post-graduation with the major investment banking firm in New York is struggling with his grade on this course.  It seems that he refuses to betray his beliefs and trash President Bush like his liberal professor, TA, and the many young social sciences pot-heads which make up the class.  Scholarship?  Critical thought?  Clear, objective, and precise analysis?  Please!!!!

I am not suggesting that this is analogous to gca.com.  However, I agree with Mr. Huckaby, that personal preferences when it comes to golf are just that, and are neither right or wrong.  It is nauseating to being continuously barraged with mal-odorous opinions (see Brad S. post) like "Bush is stupid; conservatives are evil, dumb or both; America is bad; corporations suck; the rich are greedy parasites; Damien P. is the anti-Christ; generic, unimaginative Fazio bunkers and eye candy; Jones or Fazio desecrating another classic, Nicklaus couldn't find the first tee, etc.".  Not only that, this type of discourse does little to educate, and build on understanding and concensus.

Take the rankings for what they are.  No one that I know of claims a scientific method level of statistical precision.  They are nothing more than a concensus of opinions on a subject matter that is by its very nature highly subjective.  Leave it at that and enjoy the arguments.  Don't ascribe dark motives to the process.  There is enough negativity in this world the way it is.

 

Lou_Duran

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Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #173 on: December 03, 2003, 12:28:11 PM »
Jeff-

I am keeping my eye on Andrew (probably the only small contribution that I will ever make to gca).  Other than the one issue of cart ettiquete sometime ago which you may have heard about, the young man handles himself extemely well.  He is also making great strides with his game.  Don't worry, if the gamblers and bookies start calling him "Pup II" (as the replacement for the original "Pup",  a young high school graduate under their tutelage whose parents got a wiff of what was going on and pulled him out of the club), I'll let you know.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Golf Digest Best New - coming soon...
« Reply #174 on: December 03, 2003, 12:41:57 PM »
The fact is that GCA tastes in architecture tend towards a distinct minority of the business and of the market. I happen to think they are good values but I also know that many people disagree with them.

What I find is that if you ask 'them' why? the response (or lack thereof) is more telling than the opinion.

Dr.Klein- I can't tell you how important your critical reviews are. Even your raves have their justifications which are educational and informative. I can see where the average mag reader might not follow your intellegent verbiage but certainly anyone who can read and comprehend beyond high school level should appreciate it for the science and art it is.

Just in case no one has expressed how imoportant you are to the future of quality in both new designs and old, I Thank you.

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