"TE
Was the NGLA more geometric than the early versions of Sunningdale, Huntercombe, Walton Heath, Stoke Poges and the rest of the early London courses?"

Tom MacWood:

Very good question. Why don't you try to give the answer to that question a shot?

I'd think the factual answer to that question would go a long way to better understanding when, how and why golf architecture began to evolve around 1900 and on (the beginning of the Golden Age).

Was NGLA more geometric than many of the first man-made architectural features in the linksland that began to evolve piecemeal out of those natural landforms that golfers had used for golf for hundreds of years---eg obviously TOC is the best example?

It looks to me like those early features in the linksland were not necessarily geometric but remarkably artificial looking---ie sleepers and such.

The difference between the original man-made architecture in the linksland was it began in a more piecemeal fashion and obviously on a much smaller scale initially compared to Sunningdale, Huntercombe and NGLA. The latter were far more comprehensive in what was done by man----eg far more general shaping, grading of greens, tee, obstacle features such as bunkering, berms and mounds et al  (earth-moving).

"TE
I was just correcting your statement. Macdonald did in fact go to London at a time when not only when there was a new wave in golf architecture but also a period when A&C aesthetics was prevasive."

Tom MacWood:

I have no doubt Macdonald did go to London. But just because he went there and just because you claim the A/C Movement was somewhat pervasive in London at that time does not make a connection between Macdonald and his golf architecture, at least not unless you or someone else can point to something even semi-specific. There was a lot of movements going on around London at that time, a lot of dynamic in the culture of the end of the Victorian Age but that doesn't mean any of them influenced Macdonald's architecture which very clearly were a number of existing holes and concepts in golf previously that he (and others) considered famous and well respected. Those were in the linksland, perhaps some in the heathlands and those courses generally around the coast lines that were somewhat similar to the natural landforms of the linksland (coastal). Macdonald himself recorded all this pretty comprehensively in his book.

"And he did not just study Scottish golf holes...many of his models came from the south: Westward Ho!, Sunningdale, Brancaster, Sandwich, etc."

Agreed. What Macdonald studied for his architectural models has been very well recorded by Macdonald himself.

"I'm not sure your Willie Park - Macdonald theory is a good one either. Park did not pick the site at Sunningdale, and very little is known why he chose the Huntercombe site (over 600 acres)...although we do know he planned to build a hotel and did try a housing development (which failed)."

I don't think it's particularly important whether Park actually picked the site of Sunningdale. What's important is he recognized its potential for architecture and golf compared to what had come before it in inland England. What's most important at Sunningdale and Huntercombe regarding Park is what he created there and how and why---eg what he took as his models for the golf architecture he built there. Park was from the Scottish linksland and obviously recognized that he could begin to build in the Heathland architecture that far more closely matched the natural landforms of linksland golf.

You seem to suggest he took that inspiration and how to actually create what he did architecturally in the heathlands from some art form disciplines (the A/C movement) that had little or nothing to do with golf course architecture.

Just because a number of people who you say met each other and who were proponents of the A/C movement were around London does not in any real and direct way make a connection between the A/C movement and golf course architecture, and certainly much less that the A/C movement was a powerful influence on GCA in the heathlands and later.

Again, the literature of golf architecture assigns that powerful influence of early Golden Age architecture back to the natural landforms of the Scottish linksland. It even mentions how familiar those early Golden Age architects were with particularly TOC.

I, for one, do not think that literature is wrong, or even missing anything (some powerful influence heretofore not identified and explained).

"Have you seen any early photos of the work of Colt, Fowler, Abercromby, Park, Low, Paton, MacKenzie or the NGLA?"

Yes I have, particularly early photos of NGLA and some parkland architecture from perhaps before NGLA. There are a number of photo albums in the big room at NGLA. I spent about three full days going carefully through all of them. From your short and one-time visit to NGLA I doubt you could've possibly had the time or the opportunity to do that. In my opinion, they shed a lot of light on how and why golf architecture evolved from around 1900 on.

"TE
How do you make this statement...

"Were they [Macdonald et al] natural looking or as natural looking as the architecture of Colt, Fowler, Abercrombie or particularly MacKenzie? I don't think there's any question they were not."

...if the only old photos you've seen are from the NGLA?"

Tom MacWood:

I'm not real sure why you make an assumption like that. What makes you think I've never seen early photos of the architecure of Colt, Fowler, Abercrombie or particularly MacKenzie? I've got an awful lot of golf architecture books around here and there are numerous early photos of those architects and those courses. There've been plenty of old photos on this website alone. There are plenty at the USGA, and numerous other places

The time is probably well past when you need to stop acting like you're the only person who has done any research on old architecture. I know you're just dying to make a name for yourself somehow but assumptions and remarks like that probably aren't the way to go about it? Acting like you're the only one who's aware of some of that old architecture makes you sound either petty or just plain obtuse.  

What you need to do in the future is just stop that line of thinking, and stop your twenty questions routine and start engaging in some meaningful discussion about the history and evolutions of golf course architecture.

"It is very difficult for anyone to theorize what happened during this important period if they don't have a thorough understanding of the facts."

A remark like that I would advise you to take to heart. You've attempted to assign some powerful influence on a period of golf architecture that largely IGNORES all the accumulated facts of golf architecture's previous literature that is quite comprehensive regarding the primary or most powerful influences on golf architecture. Your only apparent rationale for doing that is to proclaim that there is so much that is unknown. I'm not sure that is the case at all.

TE
How do I know you haven't seen photos of Fowler, Colt, Abercromby's early work, I assumed that was the case after I asked you directly and you replied yes I'm familar with the old photos at the NGLA.

Obviosuly I'm not the only one who has researched old architecture, there are many others but I'm pretty sure you're not one of them.

Question: are you seriously trying to find a connection between Brown and golf architecture or are you trying to come up with any competing theory to A&C? The reason I ask is because of its the latter I think you might be going at this backward and that usually doesn't work.

No one claimed that A&C garden design directly influenced golf architecture....although Wethered & Simpson's chapter on the English Garden is thought provoking. (Have you read it?) What Brad Klein suggested was that A&C theory may have been disiminated by the writing of Jekyll and others. As you know the influence the A&C movement had on creative thought at the time was to promote an appreciation for home grown vernacular design...among other things.

Regarding your Brown theory, its potentially very interesting but the when, where, who, etc still appear to be missing.

"Have you seen any early photos of the work of Colt, Fowler, Abercromby, Park, Low, Paton, MacKenzie or the NGLA?"

Yes I have, particularly early photos of NGLA and some parkland architecture from perhaps before NGLA. There are a number of photo albums in the big room at NGLA. I spent about three full days going carefully through all of them. From your short and one-time visit to NGLA I doubt you could've possibly had the time or the opportunity to do that. In my opinion, they shed a lot of light on how and why golf architecture evolved from around 1900 on.

Is the NGLA known for their archive of old photos documenting the work of Fowler, Colt, Abercromby, etc.? If so, my bad.

"Is the NGLA known for their archive of old photos documenting the work of Fowler, Colt, Abercromby, etc.? If so, my bad."

No it is not and I never said anything like that. What I said is "YES, I HAVE" seen early photos of the architecture of Colt, Abercromby, MacKenzie, Paton, Low et al. It would help, I'm sure, if you learned how to read properly

Then I used a comma and went on to explain the photos albums that are at NGLA that show tons of old photos of NGLA. But there happens to be a photo album at NGLA with some very early photos that shows a number of men and women swinging golf clubs on what appears to be a massive landscaped designed estate, perhaps in England, perhaps of Lancelot Brown. There doesn't appear there's a golf course in those photos, just a massive English estate where a course could by layed right through.  
 
 

Ahhhh, back to the top of the list where it belongs, versus all this Ryder Cup and Wie material.

I have read through TomMac's enlightening discussion of A&CM/GCA several times.  Will print it out for safe keeping.  Skimmed through Hunter's Links book again last night.

Absent some references to Repton and Brown,   where have any of the English GCAs or early American GCAs discussed the influence of A/C ?

Many early American GCAs go on and on about this hole from Scotland or England, about this bunker or that hazard.  Many early American articles and American GCAs go on and on about the trips to see basically the golf holes in Scotland and England.

What early GCA writings point directly to their love and appreciation of  A&CM or landscape architecture ?

Are there any LCA texts discussing their influence on parkland GCA ?


Anyone,

Point me somewhere for more text on A&CM influence on GCA. I would appreciate that !   Would like to have some reading material for cold rainy fall afternoons.

Are there any reviews of golf courses by English landscape architects (or whatever they would have been labeled) in that time of parkland explosion ?   Any reviews of the landscape work by the golf architects plans and plantings ?

Were there any collaborative efforts between GCAs and LCAs in early English parkland work ?

Did they just choose the parkland estates of the rich, when the rich were becoming enlighted about golf, because the land was there, had manicured parkland areas, and you could easily set up a golf course ?  After all, some artificial hazards could quickly be established.

I really do not see a pattern yet when only those who could play the game started designing the courses ?   Many who would become architects went to see TOC and Old Tom Morris.  What would Tom say to those who visited about LCA ?

Were any LCAs (or whatever the profession was called) involved in any golf course work ?

I read where many architects certainly went by and viewed Pine Valley at Crump's request.    Did Crump invite any LCAs to get their views ?

Thanks

"Absent some references to Repton and Brown,  where have any of the English GCAs or early American GCAs discussed the influence of A/C ?"

John:

I keep asking that of MacWood but he claims that doesn't matter---that that isn't relevent because the A/C Movement was this massive "Philosophy" that really didn't have a name and which most in golf architecture of the Golden Age wouldn't have mentioned for that reason.

He also said that one shouldn't really look to what those who practiced architecture back then thought of what they were doing and what influenced them because they may not have even known. He maintains that what influenced them is up to historians to mention that came long after them. Historians, I guess, like Tom MacWood.  

I should also point out John, that Tom MacWood has mentioned on this very thread that most all of the A/C movement proponents hated Brown and his particular landscape design style. Apparently they thought it too simple and not natural enough.  

Only on this site would you get page after page of erudite (well, some of it might be) discussion about something so very English between people from another shore who know FAR more about it than all but a handful of Angles.  

Still, we managed a jolly good French bean crop this year, the apples and plums have been plentiful.  Mind you, the lawn has been wrecked (by badgers coming into the garden every night).  Our garden design is inflicted on us by the badgers, foxes, our dog and our ducks if they get out of their run.  Do you think it will make a good golf course some day (about 1/3 of an acre)?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: TEPaul on Today at 01:11:22pm
----"the natural formations of the linksland pertained directly to golf and they preceded the A/C movement by hundreds of years."  

 
 

"Precisely! And the middle age gardens that were the models for Jekyll & company preceded the A&C movement by a couple years, and the vernacular architecture that influenced Lutyens, Voysey, etc preceded them by a couple hundred years, and the vernacular crafts that inspired Ashbee, Morris, Crane etc preceded them by a couple hundred years,...

Do you see the pattern?"

Yes, I do Tom, and it's all very interesting when it comes to gardens and vernacular "crafts" and such.

But the huge differerence which you have apparently failed to recognize since I've been discussing this subject with you is  those middle age GARDENS were the models for Jekyll and company ET AL who were 19th century LANDSCAPE GARDENERS and not golf course architects. Those middle aged GARDENS that preceded the A/C movement by hundreds of years perhaps were influential to Ashbee, Morris and Crane and VERNACULAR CRAFTS. But those things aren't golf or golf architecture and Morris, Ashbee and Crane had nothing to do with golf or golf architecture.

What I am talking about, however, is the natural formations of the linksland, such as TOC that preceded golf course architecture itself by hundreds of years. I'm talking about a model that GOLF was played on for hundreds of years before Golf architecture began on that very GOLF site.

Perhaps you are under some impression that this website is about GARDENS or VERNACULAR CRAFTS.

Check out the front page again, Tom----this website is about GOLF ARCHITECTURE AND GOLF, not GARDENS and CRAFTS.

Perhaps you never understood that. Frankly, that wouldn't surprise me at all.  

Nevertheless, just point out one SPECIFIC thing about golf architecture that was ever directly influenced by the Arts and Crafts movement and those art forms with which it directly had to do.

At least I'm pointing out just those things that had to do with GOLF ITSELF that preceded golf course architeture---eg the Scottish LINKSLAND!!

Why would golf architects be immune from the influence of the A&C movement. They worked and lived among the people cited above. Not only did they work among them, they worked directly with many of them.

The entire culture from music to garden design to furniture design to home decorating to city planning was affected by this revival idea...and not only did this aesthetic movement promote looking back to vernacular designs it was also very interested in unifying the arts and crafts.

What is inherently different or unique about golf course design that would preclude it from this cultural influence? Do you think golf architecture should be segregated from the other arts or maybe not considered an art at all? Didn't the golf architects of that period consider golf architecture an art?

"An unfortunate reaction by you regarding what this site is about (does that mean we won't be reading about Steeplechase courses and Capability Brown in the future)...."

Tom MacWood:

I doubt it because even though you apparently haven't figured it out yet they did have a direct and provable influence on golf architecture, something that unfortunately cannot yet be said for the Arts and Crafts movement in Victorian England.