TP,

Speaking of that..it just hit me this morning that your advocacy of slow greens will force courses into the lengthening mode due to their inability to defend at the greens...thanks guy..

Tom,

I'm just trying to help you prepare if the cocktail hour runs a little long before one of your presentations.....I can't imagine anybody coming up with something stupider than some of my arguments.   Even though they are based in fact....

Shivas,

I remember standing next to the first green at Augusta wondering if I could ever be done putting on that hole...I think once I got to a comfortable 11 or 12 over I could putt them pretty well.....so....it is how I get to 11 or 12 over that would determine my total putts......don't tell anybody but I'm a headcase.. to put it lightly...

But you can never be too sure what some member might do. I was once playing Seminole with my Dad and a friend of his called Dizzy Benson. Dizzy's name came about apparently for somewhat obvious reasons.

Anyway, we were on the 17th hole and we were waiting on the tee for the group ahead of us to clear the green. The green of Seminole's #17 is in plain view slightly below the tee about 175 yds away.

Dizzy sauntered over and teed up his ball (it wasn't even his honor, I don't think) and we figured he was just getting antsy waiting for the green to clear. No, that wasn't it at all! Dizzy rather quickly hit a great shot right in the middle of the green and right into the middle of all the golfers and caddies on it without even looking!

Dad yelled; "Dizzy what the hell did you do that for?", and Dizzy said; "Oh Jesus, I didn't see anyone on the green!"

So you never know!

Dave;

I've seen worse than Dizzy, though! One time down the road at Gulf Stream G.C. (which has a lot of the same type of members as does Seminole) I was playing a little Tuesday tournament with my Dad and the old members. There was a thunderstorm delay right around lunch time. About a hundred members were sitting on the covered patio adjacent to the pro shop where an elaborate buffet had been set up.

Along comes this old guy in his cart, right up near the patio, turns his cart around slowly so the rear of it is facing the patio and proceeds to stomp on the accelerator to get his rear tires over a small step on the patio and backs his cart into the patio crashing into chairs and tables with people at them and knocks over the entire buffet!

And just like Dizzy when everyone screamed at him; "What the Hell are you doing?", he said; "Oh Jesus, I didn't see anyone on the patio!"

AG

I personally believe that the frequency of hurricanes in Florida this year is a direct result of the swinging chads from the 2000 election.  It is only the "butterfly effect" from chaos theory which caused it to be delayed by nearly 4 years.  It is fallacious to think that "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" is a fallacy.

As to my golf game, my opponent was not only a friend but also a GCA, which means that he putts like god but often strikes the ball like dog.  As he is a 10 and I am a 6 he is an inferior golfer to me, ipso facto. Sorry, but that's the way it is.....

You should also know that my "smileys" have been disabled by Ran ever since drove his brother off this site by refusing to agree with him that the view from the 13th hole at Lundin Links was "one of the Top Ten views in Scottish golf."

So, some of my posts are serious and some are less so.  Take them all cum grana salis.

Semper ubi, sub ubi

Rich

If someone had time to go back through Tom I's 14,262 (and counting) posts and pull out all of the "Goofballs (and Other Rich People) I've Known" stories, I think we'd be looking at a best-seller.

In this morning's paper, I read this stat:  Brad Faxon has not 3-putted in his last 324 holes!  That is 18 rounds, or 4 1/2 tournaments.

As best I can tell, his last 5 events, along with courses and GCA's are:

WGC-AmEx at Mt. Juliet Estate (Nicklaus)
84 Lumber at Nemacolin Woodlands (Dye)
Deutsche Bank at TPC of Boston (Palmer)
Buick Championship at TPC of River Highlands (Robert Ross, Dye and Weed)
WGC-NEC at Firestone (RTJ)

I haven't played any of these, so I'm not sure of the contour of these particular greens, but they must be damn flat greens for a guy like Faxon to be able to so consistently 2 putt (or better!).  I'd like to get his scrawny butt on some contoured greens; I'd wear him out!

Does this make any of the hypothetical "scorecards" from earlier in the thread a bit suspect?  I grant that Faxon is the best out there, and that he is obviously rolling it well, but can anyone seriously look at these stats off these five courses and contend that a bad putter could do BETTER relative to Faxon on these greens compared to flat greens at Goat Hills?
Come on!  Check into drug rehab and rejoin civilization!

I grant that Faxon is the best out there, and that he is obviously rolling it well, but can anyone seriously look at these stats off these five courses and contend that a bad putter could do BETTER relative to Faxon on these greens compared to flat greens at Goat Hills?
Come on!  Check into drug rehab and rejoin civilization!

AGC:  I can look at those stats and maintain my contentions, absolutely.  Do you REALLY want me to go into the why part of it again?  

Just do remember ONCE AGAIN that the issue isn't that the bad putter is ever going to do BETTER than Faxon - he's not, no matter where.  The contention is that he's going to come closer to him on contoured greens than on flat.  And he is, for the reasons I have tried to explain umpteen ways to you all who are so afflicted with not seeing beyond the obvious.  End of story, no drug rehab necessary.  Well, not for this anyway.

Lovingly,


TH

Brent:

As a statistician, you make far too much sense.

 

Of course that would shed light on this debate, but expecting it to SETTLE it is like expecting Republicans to admit George Bush got his ass kicked in the three debates, or Democrats to admit the same re Kerry.  Not gonna happen.

In all seriousness though, that would be interesting, but the worst pro is still a very good putter, and thus the difference from worst to best isn't enough to really solve this.  Unfortunately what we do need is Joe Hack v. Brad Faxon, and if you can find data on that, then you are even more of THE MAN than I already think you are.

 

Aw come on AGC, are you REALLY gonna give up?  

It's funny - I see this as simple as you do and am as baffled as you are, coming from the other direction.  No kidding - I really do think it is fundamental and obvious that a missed putt is a missed putt, and Faxon is gonna have way more on contoured greens, enough to make the lesser putter come closer to him.  I really do believe this.

See, over time contour DOES accentuate the skill of the better putter - agreed.  But to me that just means he's gonna get putts CLOSER over time.  He's still going to leave putts that he can miss, though - which he just plain won't on flat greens.  A perfect example of this was one I just rudely inserted into Ed's thread about Greywall, changing the subject to Meadow Club.  The third green there has many putts that BOTH Faxon and Joe Hack are going to three putt, and they're not so severe that JH is going to four putt.  To me, this is pretty common in a highly-contoured green.  Put them back on a flat green, and Joe Hack still 3jacks from time to time, where Brad never does.  So where does Joe Hack come closer to Brad?  If you can't see that it's on the 3rd green at Meadow Club, then perhaps you should really give up.  

Now of course you can argue that #3 Meadow Club is an atypical green, and I'd agree with that.  But it is the kind of "highly contoured green" I thought this whole thing was based on.

In any case perhaps that is one of our disconnects.  I'm thinking of pretty severe greens, where Brad will indeed three putt, versus flat greens where he never will.  Maybe such scenarios don't exist and Brad never three putts anywhere.  But I gotta tell ya, I'd bet good money he 3putts at least 50% of the time from the putt I had on #3 Meadow Club, because there is just no way under the laws of physics that one gets that inside of 10 feet, without holing it (which is also bloody unlikely).  So IF Brad hits a great putt, he's left with another twisting 10 footer - not too much break, but enough so that I'm betting he only makes half.  Meanwhile Joe Hack gets it to 20 feet and two putts from there, damn near all the time.  Three putts = three putts.

That seems to be our fundamental disconnect.  If we base this on who gets it closer to the hole, I agree with you whole-heartedly.  But I believe we are basing this on putts holed, and for that reason I contend what I do.

TH

Fair enough.  I believe we have come to a conclusion.

Because.....

a) I don't put too much stock into those stats about Faxon on tour.  Outside of majors those guys don't tend to play the "highly contoured greens" I am talking about which make my contention correct.  Again, perhaps this is our fundamental disconnect.  I'm not talking greens with a little break, I'm talking monsters like #3 at Meadow Club.  Oh yes, just make this SOME BREAK and it won't be enough to get Brad to 3jack - as you show - and thus my contentions fail.  But that is not what I meant in my contentions.

and...

b) I really do think that Joe Hack is not going to 4putt enough to make such relevant, and that as per my example, the normal occurrence is going to be that they each just 3putt in different ways.  I could be wrong here.  But I just witnessed four players of wildly different abilities all three putt #3 Meadow, all just like this, so I feel pretty strong that I'm right.  Oh I know, I shouldn't go from a specific to the general.  But this did have a powerful affect on my contentions here.

and...

c) Hell yes golf is different than anything else in the universe.  If you don't believe and accept that, then I guess there truly is no hope.  

So we shall agree to disagree, no?  Or perhaps we agree more than you think?

TH