In the project I was involved with the JN group Jack would have never seen the project if the owner hadn't agreed to a," paid personal appearance lunch" with the founding membership after 90% completion of the first nine.  

The ratings thing obviously should note whose list it was, not that ratings are really any kind of accurate reflection.

At any rate, would someone like to tackle the GIGANTICALLY HUGE PARADOX of a man stating you need to be a top golfer to understand top golfers, and that TOC is one of his primary influences, that he'd like to do more like it?

As to your other points, and just to play devils advocate again (which I seem to be in the mood for today, perhaps because John K isn't participating today!) let me turn a few questions around.

OH COME ON JEFF. YOU'RE NOT THAT BAD!

Should a restoration with a gca's name on it be any less important for him to be involved in that a new course?

LESS? OF COURSE NOT. IN FACT, I THINK IT CARRIES MORE RESPONSIBILTY.

Since Tom D is a "tough golf" advocate by his own admission, is it really fair to characterize him as more player friendly than JN, esp. given some of JN's recent work which strikes me as very moderate?  I think we could pick out courses by either demonstrating either their committment or lack thereof to average players (as we could from my, or Mike Youngs, or paul Cowley's portfolios)

ALL TRUE, BUT I THINK BY LOOKING AT THE OVERALL BODY OF WORK, JN WOULD TAKE THE "TOUGHEST COURSES" TITLE, AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I JUST DON'T LIKE HEARING PAY LIP SERVICE TO TOC WHEN HIS COURSES ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT, IMHO.



Is your perception of designing for the high fade not a decade out of date and thus not relevant?

I DID IN FACT MAKE IT A POINT OF SAYING EARLY IN HIS CAREER. AND I UNDERSTAND THE FACT THAT JN, TD AND YOURSELF ALL GROW AND CHANGE IN YOUR IDEAS AND APPROACHES.

Is it any harder for a Tour player to understand the average guy when designing than it is for an average golfer to understand a Tour players point of view?  (in my mind, both are very possible)


POINT TAKEN. BUT I'M NOT A TOUR PLAYER SO FOR ME THE FACT THAT THE COURSE IS A TOUR CALIBER TEST ISN'T A END ALL BE ALL. TESTING THE BROADEST RANGE OF GOLFERS AND GIVING THEM EQUAL AMOUNT OF ENJOYMENT IS.

Again, I think the mental masturbation, if any, in this thread is taking what might have been a throwaway statement from Jack and twisting it around to fit any of our particular architectural views. Yes, you can find ammo there to bolster your belief that TD and the other new wave minimalists are superior gca's.  

I LIKE THEIR COURSES AND STYLES BETTER, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE BETTER, ALTHOUGH I THINK PERSONALLY THAT THEY ARE. JN HAS DONE COURSES I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY EVENTUALLY, BUT IF IT MEANS CHOOSING HIS OR A NICE GA COURSE, WELL, IT'S OBVIOUS.


However, if you cared to, you could also take some positives out of JN's remarks - he learned something new from TD, he loves TOC, he uses other old courses as models rather than modern stuff, etc.

YOU DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT DO YOU?


 I believe that if you didn't have a predisposition to find things not to like about JN the gca, these statements taken on their own wouldn't be such lightning rods.

I TRY TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND WITH EVERYTHING I SEE. HAVING SAID THAT, IF I'VE SEEN A PATTERN WITH SOMEONE, CHANCES ARE I KNOW WHAT I'M GOING TO GET. BUT, I DO TRY TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THE ARCH CAN CHANGE AND GROW AND I LIKE TO GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT IF THE DOUBT. I'M SURE JN IS ALWAYS CHANGING, BUT WHEN HE MAKES THE REMARKS HE DOES, WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO THINK?

But then, I have my own biases too, so I guess I have to say, "not that there's anything wrong with that....."

I think TD made the truest statement on this thread - its only posted to fan the flames, or at the very least, it was pretty obvious where it would go, even if that was not the intent!


AGREED ON WHERE IT WAS GOING TO GO PART. TD HAS FAR MORE SUPPORTERS HERE THAN JN. THE QUESTION IS, WHY IS THAT?

And I still want to hear what Craig S thinks makes this thread different in the MM mode!

Let me ask you 1500 or so golfers - would you rather play day in day out, a JN or TD course?  If character, for almost every you and I, is your measure than Doak home runs nearly every time.  

JC

David,

According to the article, Ballyneal was #6 and Stone Eagle was #9 in GD rankings of Best New Private. Perhaps you're thinking of another publications rankings.