[Jeff_Brauer]

Tony,

Of course, the other way to look at that is to compare batting averages. Doak has designed about 2 of 20 courses that make the top 100, or about 6%, and JN has 6 out of maybe 200, or 3%.

Digging deeper, that may not be suprising. JN does a lot of development work, and TD has had what by all accounts has to be the most amazing run of quality sites in all of gca history.  I think a few more TD courses will make the list, but given his sites,  we would expect a  higher percentage of top 100's.

[Tim Pitner]

Another way to compare them would be by looking at the quality of their top courses.  Staying in the USA (which disadvantages Doak), compare Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal to Muirfield Village and Castle Pines.  Hmm . . . not too much room for reasonable disagreement there.  

[Michael Dugger]

Oh come on, fellas, ratings are bogus!

You can't base any argument on that rubbish, you tellin' me Kingsley Club is fodder because it didn't make someone's list???

It didn't make a list because not enough people have seen it.

Straight up

[Jerry Kluger]

Please don't allow this to digress into a ratings discussion.

Tony: I would attribute the conditioning craze to the exposure of ANGC as promoters are often heard to say that their course is in comparable condition to Augusta.

[Randy Thompson]

Jeff,
I have recently worked with the JN group and worked with the senior architect on site and I guarantee you the senior architect did not draw the plans but did do some consulting or overseeing. I have been to their offices also and seen the team of Junior’s that do the work. I have not worked with Tom but know a lot of the people that have and yes because of his success, he is probably spending less time then in the past but to compare to JN is unjust in my opinion. In the project I was involved with the JN group Jack would have never seen the project if the owner hadn't agreed to a," paid personal appearance lunch" with the founding membership after 90% completion of the first nine. I seriously doubt if Tom has lowered his standards to that level or ever will. If that were his intentions, he wouldn’t be turning away more projects then he is excepting.

Randy

[David Stamm]

 In the project I was involved with the JN group Jack would have never seen the project if the owner hadn't agreed to a," paid personal appearance lunch" with the founding membership after 90% completion of the first nine.  

This is just amazing. Not surprising, but amazing.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Randy seems much closer to reality on this than any of we so called purest would ever want to believe.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Randy,

I suspect that you are right about Tom D still having more involvement in his projects than JN has in his, but he has hinted on here that there are a number of his remodels of famous clubs being handled by associates, and even referenced "last time I saw it" dates on his new work that suggest that he isn't on site driving the bull dozers every day.

Now, I don't know if he ever did that, but some here have the perception that he did/does and the romantic notion that building it yourself in the dirt is the only way to get what you want done, done.  Tom is on record as saying it doesn't really matter exactly how it gets done (think MacKenzie in Australia, with most work done after he left) as long as it gets done.  I think he is stronger on that point now that he has to find ways to handle an ever increasing work load.

That was the main idea in my post, albeit I was being a bit tongue in cheek.

Craig Sweet,

Your last post has me wondering just what isn't mental masturbation on this site?  Are you suggesting we start trying to control that NOW on this site after all our years of "practice makes perfect" in meaningless debates?

[David Stamm]

 but he has hinted on here that there are a number of his remodels of famous clubs being handled by associates, and even referenced "last time I saw it" dates on his new work that suggest that he isn't on site driving the bull dozers every day.

 

As you know Jeff, that's not the same as starting from scratch. Working with old photo's and drawing's are easier for Urbina and co. I would think then doing an original. Having said that, TD has surrounded himself with some pretty smart people that know what the boss wants, much like JN. I just think TD spends more time on site (or at least I get that impression) than JN and designs with a broader range of golfers in mind. They both serve their purpose, plain and simple. JN sells memberships (or high green fees) because of his name. Tom's courses look like they work WITH the land and therefore appear more natural and offer mutiples lines of play for all levels of golfers. For my personal taste, I would want TD, C&C, Hanse, Devries and others to do my course rather than JN, Palmer, Player, etc. That's NOT to say that former players can't do some good work, case in point Weiskopf ( and some courses by already mentioned players). But by and large, I would imagine that it is difficult for tour great (or former great) to not look at a course from a player of that level's standpoint. Look how often JN built in the fade shot in so many of his early courses. It seems they can't help but design with their own abilites and tendencies in mind, IMHO.

[George Pazin]

The ratings thing obviously should note whose list it was, not that ratings are really any kind of accurate reflection.

At any rate, would someone like to tackle the GIGANTICALLY HUGE PARADOX of a man stating you need to be a top golfer to understand top golfers, and that TOC is one of his primary influences, that he'd like to do more like it?

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Its understandable why you have your particular list of gca faves and no one can argue with them.

As to your other points, and just to play devils advocate again (which I seem to be in the mood for today, perhaps because John K isn't participating today!) let me turn a few questions around.

Should a restoration with a gca's name on it be any less important for him to be involved in that a new course?

Since Tom D is a "tough golf" advocate by his own admission, is it really fair to characterize him as more player friendly than JN, esp. given some of JN's recent work which strikes me as very moderate?  I think we could pick out courses by either demonstrating either their committment or lack thereof to average players (as we could from my, or Mike Youngs, or paul Cowley's portfolios)

Is your perception of designing for the high fade not a decade out of date and thus not relevant?

Is it any harder for a Tour player to understand the average guy when designing than it is for an average golfer to understand a Tour players point of view?  (in my mind, both are very possible)

Again, I think the mental masturbation, if any, in this thread is taking what might have been a throwaway statement from Jack and twisting it around to fit any of our particular architectural views. Yes, you can find ammo there to bolster your belief that TD and the other new wave minimalists are superior gca's.  

However, if you cared to, you could also take some positives out of JN's remarks - he learned something new from TD, he loves TOC, he uses other old courses as models rather than modern stuff, etc.  I believe that if you didn't have a predisposition to find things not to like about JN the gca, these statements taken on their own wouldn't be such lightning rods.

But then, I have my own biases too, so I guess I have to say, "not that there's anything wrong with that....."

I think TD made the truest statement on this thread - its only posted to fan the flames, or at the very least, it was pretty obvious where it would go, even if that was not the intent!

And I still want to hear what Craig S thinks makes this thread different in the MM mode!

[Jeff_Brauer]

The ratings thing obviously should note whose list it was, not that ratings are really any kind of accurate reflection.

At any rate, would someone like to tackle the GIGANTICALLY HUGE PARADOX of a man stating you need to be a top golfer to understand top golfers, and that TOC is one of his primary influences, that he'd like to do more like it?

George,

See my post above.  

I am not sure that Jack's genuine love of TOC and his view that top players understand top players better are mutually exclusive.

As to whether his courses should look more like TOC, is it not true that CBMac used TOC and other classic GBI courses as models, and yet, NGLA looks nothing like any of them because he realized he could only use the principles, and couldn't copy them directly?

For that matter, what courses of MacKenzie, who wrote the "spirit of st andrews" really look like TOC?

So why the snide tone when JN says he's inspired by TOC but his courses aren't Tour 18 versions?

As I have been trying to say, its okay to not like his work, or to like other work better. No problem.  I am sorry that I have contributed to a four page thread that seeks to take some fairly standard gca comments to bash home that obvious point.

[Jim Nugent]

For comparison reasons JN has 6 courses in Top 100 and Doak has 2.
JN-Muirfield Village-#18
      Castle Pines-#36
      Shoal Creek-#50
      Mayacama-#66
      Valhalla-#67
      Sycamore Hills-#92

TD-Pacific Dunes-#14
      Lost Dunes-#63

Tom also has three courses in Golf Magazine's World top 50: each one is ranked higher than the only one Jack has there.  And Jack's lone entry, Muirfield Village, is a collaboration.  From what I read Desmond Muirhead did most of the design work.  

Though I'm a rank gca amateur, I still question whether Jack is really a golf course architect, seeing as he has never to my knowledge routed a golf course in his life.  

[Jonathan Cummings]

Let me ask you 1500 or so golfers - would you rather play day in day out, a JN or TD course?  If character, for almost every you and I, is your measure than Doak home runs nearly every time.  

JC

[Steve_ Shaffer]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't JN win GD's Best New Private for 2006 for The Concession in Sarasota, FL over TD's Ballyneal and Stone Eagle? Perhaps he was just demonstrating his "competitiveness" in the interview?

www.golfdigest.com/rankings/courses/private/2007/bestnewprivate_gd2007

[David Stamm]

As to your other points, and just to play devils advocate again (which I seem to be in the mood for today, perhaps because John K isn't participating today!) let me turn a few questions around.

OH COME ON JEFF. YOU'RE NOT THAT BAD!

Should a restoration with a gca's name on it be any less important for him to be involved in that a new course?

LESS? OF COURSE NOT. IN FACT, I THINK IT CARRIES MORE RESPONSIBILTY.

Since Tom D is a "tough golf" advocate by his own admission, is it really fair to characterize him as more player friendly than JN, esp. given some of JN's recent work which strikes me as very moderate?  I think we could pick out courses by either demonstrating either their committment or lack thereof to average players (as we could from my, or Mike Youngs, or paul Cowley's portfolios)

ALL TRUE, BUT I THINK BY LOOKING AT THE OVERALL BODY OF WORK, JN WOULD TAKE THE "TOUGHEST COURSES" TITLE, AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I JUST DON'T LIKE HEARING PAY LIP SERVICE TO TOC WHEN HIS COURSES ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT, IMHO.



Is your perception of designing for the high fade not a decade out of date and thus not relevant?

I DID IN FACT MAKE IT A POINT OF SAYING EARLY IN HIS CAREER. AND I UNDERSTAND THE FACT THAT JN, TD AND YOURSELF ALL GROW AND CHANGE IN YOUR IDEAS AND APPROACHES.

Is it any harder for a Tour player to understand the average guy when designing than it is for an average golfer to understand a Tour players point of view?  (in my mind, both are very possible)


POINT TAKEN. BUT I'M NOT A TOUR PLAYER SO FOR ME THE FACT THAT THE COURSE IS A TOUR CALIBER TEST ISN'T A END ALL BE ALL. TESTING THE BROADEST RANGE OF GOLFERS AND GIVING THEM EQUAL AMOUNT OF ENJOYMENT IS.

Again, I think the mental masturbation, if any, in this thread is taking what might have been a throwaway statement from Jack and twisting it around to fit any of our particular architectural views. Yes, you can find ammo there to bolster your belief that TD and the other new wave minimalists are superior gca's.  

I LIKE THEIR COURSES AND STYLES BETTER, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE BETTER, ALTHOUGH I THINK PERSONALLY THAT THEY ARE. JN HAS DONE COURSES I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY EVENTUALLY, BUT IF IT MEANS CHOOSING HIS OR A NICE GA COURSE, WELL, IT'S OBVIOUS.


However, if you cared to, you could also take some positives out of JN's remarks - he learned something new from TD, he loves TOC, he uses other old courses as models rather than modern stuff, etc.

YOU DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT DO YOU?


 I believe that if you didn't have a predisposition to find things not to like about JN the gca, these statements taken on their own wouldn't be such lightning rods.

I TRY TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND WITH EVERYTHING I SEE. HAVING SAID THAT, IF I'VE SEEN A PATTERN WITH SOMEONE, CHANCES ARE I KNOW WHAT I'M GOING TO GET. BUT, I DO TRY TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THE ARCH CAN CHANGE AND GROW AND I LIKE TO GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT IF THE DOUBT. I'M SURE JN IS ALWAYS CHANGING, BUT WHEN HE MAKES THE REMARKS HE DOES, WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO THINK?

But then, I have my own biases too, so I guess I have to say, "not that there's anything wrong with that....."

I think TD made the truest statement on this thread - its only posted to fan the flames, or at the very least, it was pretty obvious where it would go, even if that was not the intent!


AGREED ON WHERE IT WAS GOING TO GO PART. TD HAS FAR MORE SUPPORTERS HERE THAN JN. THE QUESTION IS, WHY IS THAT?

And I still want to hear what Craig S thinks makes this thread different in the MM mode!

[David Stamm]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't JN win GD's Best New Private for 2006 for The Concession in Sarasota, FL over TD's Ballyneal and Stone Eagle? Perhaps he was just demonstrating his "competitiveness" in the interview?

www.golfdigest.com/rankings/courses/private/2007/bestnewprivate_gd2007

Steve, if I'm not mistaken, not enough rankers played either, from what I remember.

[David Stamm]

Let me ask you 1500 or so golfers - would you rather play day in day out, a JN or TD course?  If character, for almost every you and I, is your measure than Doak home runs nearly every time.  

JC

Jonathan, for me, it would be TD by far. But that's just me. Doesn't mean it's the right answer or the wrong. Obviously it all comes down to the individual course.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

David,

According to the article, Ballyneal was #6 and Stone Eagle was #9 in GD rankings of Best New Private. Perhaps you're thinking of another publications rankings.

[David Stamm]

David,

According to the article, Ballyneal was #6 and Stone Eagle was #9 in GD rankings of Best New Private. Perhaps you're thinking of another publications rankings.

You're probably right.

[TEPaul]

Michael Dugger:

I like your post #115.

Stick to your guns, think your own thoughts, find your own strategies on a golf course. Just go with your intuition. Don't let anybody tell you what a golf shot should be for you.

That's the way it ought to be.

Good show!

[Brent Hutto]

Funny how no matter what the topic, it eventually comes down to a discussion of rankings on various lists. It sort of puts a shelf life on any discussion, after 100 or so replies all topics become ratings topics.

Oh well, this one probably deserved a quick and merciful death anyway...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does commercial success equate to artistic/creative merit ?

If what David Susskind stated was true, words to the effect that there were no bad TV shows, only bad audiences"

Can the same be said about golf courses ?

That it's the audiences (golfers) tastes that dictate the product and popularity and not the artistic/creative merits.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Brent

I used the GD rankings to suggest that JN was " ... perhaps just demonstrating his "competitiveness" in the interview" I did not use the rankings to hijack this thread.

[Brett Hochstein]

with Coore's name being throwing around a bit in all this mess, i offer the following comparative quotes:

"...My competition is nature."--Nicklaus

"I cannot compete with nature, and it would only showcase my futility if I tried. So I  try to cooperate." --Coore in Stephen Goodwin's wonderful Dream Golf

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