[Andy Troeger]

I suppose for the better player that miss isn't a common occurrence and a back tee could help them; but it still requires some thought. I hit driver between the bunkers and I hit it everywhere so it can't be that tough  

The reason the tee was moved up was because of that left side arroyo and the problems it caused for most players. Its in play more than you give it credit for, at least for mortals

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Yes, it may be in play when played from the frontal markers. That doesn't happen for the longer / better player. What I am saying is that sort of tweak is needed in order to keep balance on the demands the hole presents -- for the mid to high handicap type players and those on the other side of the fence.

[Steve Lang]

  time out boys !  the view from the ground versus the air, says Baxter's got ya'll thinking too much.. I thought play was aim over left bunker, fade into fairway, or just power over left bunker or draw off right bunkers..

[Andy Troeger]

Steve,
To me the tough part from the back tee is getting over the desert just short of the left bunker and left of the arrows in your photograph. Judging by your photos that's a 260 yard carry, so unless you're really long that's no easy shot and a fairly severe penalty down there. The farther left you want to drive the ball (which gives a better angle into the green) the more you have to flirt with trouble over there. Carrying the left bunker isn't an option from back there for most of us.

[wsmorrison]

Thanks for posting the photo, Steve.  What immediately came to my mind was how interesting the design of this hole might level the playing field between the long hitter and the shorter hitter while providing an interesting dynamic for first-time players.  I don't know the altitude of the course but I will assume the hole plays as on level topography with sea level carry distances.

If the fairway on the left is immediately beyond the bunker (I can't tell what is rough and what is fairway) then the longer hitters have room to blast a driver.  It appears that the greenside bunkering does not favor an approach from the left.  If the green slants left to right, that would be a perfect strategic challenge for long hitters.  Would they have the sense to reign in their power on this hole (once or twice a round at most; power is a skill that needs to be tested) and not play the distance card to the left with a bad angle in to a green that slopes away?  Or would both the long and shorter hitter play along the right fairway line?  Obviously the longer hitter would still have some skill advantage because he'd hit 3 or 4 wood and the shorter hitter would still hit driver and the approaches would be hit with different clubs, but it still equalizes somewhat.

Mark Parsinen wanted to design a hole that equalized the longer and shorter hitter relating this to Tom and I a number of years ago.  If the topography made an approach from the left more of a blind shot, that would be even better as a means to induce the same line of play.  Again, I think this adds variety if done occasionally, not systematically.

[Steve Lang]

 

its at altitude.. carry is ~10% greater than sea level, I played 1 and 2 tees in from tips, so yes, highly agree with the neutralization factor there!  it is intimidating as left bunker isn't real visible from tee.. with uphill shot.. definitiely not for weak of heart..

i remember green relatively flat.. for BM!

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, Steve.  I've no idea as I've never been in that area nor am I likely to be.  I think the sort of distance equalizing design that Mark Parsinen first discussed with us is a fascinating concept.  I hope I described the kind of hole that would work, even if this isn't exactly it.

[CHrisB]

Matt,
I didn't remember seeing any reason why the driver would be taken out of the better player's hands on #9, even without wind. The playable area (grass + fairway bunkers) actually gets wider as you go, and most better players wouldn't mind being in a fairway bunker if they miss, unless the lip is so high that they wouldn't be able to reach the green. As I remember, those fairway bunkers offer a good chance of making a reasonable approach (can't remember just how severe the bunker lips/edges are, but the bunkers are generally large and don't they tilt slightly uphill?). So there does seem to be an option there--hit the longer shot but flirt with the bunkers on the right (especially when the pin is near the front right bunker, or anywhere else uncomfortable to approach from 175 yards out), or lay back and decide how close to the right bunker you want to go (still having to hit a good shot because the target is narrower the farther back you leave it).

I do agree with you that a different tee angle could be really interesting there, although if you go right you hit the road (and the driving range) pretty quickly. I'd like to see an alternate tee down and to the left by #8 (it wouldn't have to make the hole any longer) that could allow someone to try to make the long carry into the fairway past the left bunker, or play more to the right which would now be a more angled target area. The problem would be that the area down by #8 lies pretty low (though I think there is a ridge there for a possible tee) and it woudln't work if you couldn't make the fairway/bunkers visible from the tee.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

Just a few comments ...

The picture posted by Steve L doesn't really provide the "look" of what the golfer actually sees from ground level along with the challenges one faces.

Clearly, people can opine from the peanut gallery but it's nothing more than surface level analysis.

To answer your points ...

The bottleneck area I described is a physical fact -- the area is roughly 22 yards across and when you think about getting a driver through that area -- usually into the summer headwind -- you really have to give pause. The area that "gets wider as you go," only happens when the drive is hit on a line in the 290-300 range. Then the hole starts to widen as mentioned.

In regards to the fairway bunker complex on the right I'd rate the odds in getting ball at or near the putting green at no better than 50/50 and that's with someone with a high dexterity level. There's no pronounced lip but shot execution in such a situation is far from automatic -- ditto the lie you get.

Better players generally avoid the bottleneck area and play a longer approach. No doubt there's a trade-off given the hump-back qualities of the green -- especially when cut to the very front.

Don't why you mentioned the possibility in hitting the driving range. That would take a mega foul ball to the right and I doubt anyone could reach it. The left side for a tee box would be somewhat interesting. Although the par-3 8th green does cut in somewhat. What would make that interesting is that Irish holes do have tip tees situated where tee shots must fly over the preceding hole.

In regards to your last point -- I don't see the need in making bunkers visible if that alternative were chosen. But lengthening the hole would put more heat on the better player to hit further down the fairway in order to have a more comfortable approach. Those laying back even with the suggested new tip tee box would then face an even longer approach and frankly I think that would balance out the requirements faced from the different handicap levels.

[wsmorrison]

"Clearly, people can opine from the peanut gallery but it's nothing more than surface level analysis."

You just don't get it, do you?  One doesn't have to play the course to remark on the subject of golf design extrapolated from an aerial photo.  It was an academic exercise based on the attached photo.    It was clearly stated that the course is unfamiliar and that the photograph gave rise to a concept although a lot of ifs were used to demonstrate a point.  Why do you call such an exercise surface level analysis?  Your dismissive remark is very superficial.

[Adam Clayman]

Wayne, I'll see if I can shed some light on your question answering and adding descriptions as I go.
 No, I don't believe in it's current state the hole qualifies as a equalizer hole, the way I understand yours and Mark P's concept. For one, the green does not slope to the right, save for a small mid back left mini ridge which creates a subtle bowl, and, it is visible from where I think you are calling the left side.
The hole plays gently uphill, more so uphill from short and/right in front of the right fwy bunkers. So, the green is actually invisible from here because of the raised bunker lips and the uphill aspect. This short right area is not that big and the firmness of the turf can carry ones well executed shot into the bunker or farther right which is worse.
Really long balls that are played over what Matt is calling a rudimentary leftside fwy bunker, can get pretty close to the far left bunker complex nearer the green, with either a could tail wind, or, a lower hit ground eating fade. Missing just slightly str8, or left, is common on attempting to challenge the left bunker and pinchpoint.
 I don't consider the bunker scheme rudimentary at all. To me it's exacting and intimidating. These are the requirements and the feelings on each and every playing of the hole, regardless of conditions. IMO, The hole needs these attributes tremdously because compared to the remainder at Black Mesa, the ground the hole traverses, lacks comparable drama.  

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, Adam.  I was trying to use that photo to demonstrate what Mark Parsinen was trying to relate to us.  I understood that what is seen in an aerial is not necessarily how it appears on the ground.  I also made mention that if the green sloped left to right and if the green was more hidden from the left angle that the hole would play like an equalizer as envisioned by Mark.  Even though it doesn't, it was an opportunity to broach the subject.  

Long and wrong Matt Ward didn't think I, as a denizen of his so-called peanut gallery am worthy of participating on this thread.  

[Adam Clayman]

Wayne, I believe I see how this holes configuration could've created the equality you speak of. I'm not poitive though. I keep running into this wall of  distingushing between the longer hitter, and the non-thinking longer hitter. If the better line (angle and visual) into the green is easier from where the short hitter plays to, that's where the smarter player would play to too. No?
 If the back tee was placed to the left of the eighth green, making the hole virtually st8, as the arrows go, it would be simialr to other equalizing stategies I have seen elsewhere, where the tee shot length and angle are completely different, giving us mortals a chance to play the hole strategies like the big boys.

I think i'm getting more confused.

[CHrisB]

Matt,
What I was saying was that although a tee further to the right of the current #9 tee would present a new and interesting angle, there doesn't appear to be a lot of room right of the current tee to put a new tee box, because of the road and driving range. To the left, though, perhaps on that little ridge 30-40 yards back/to the left of #8 green (where you wouldn't have to hit over the 8th hole at all), could be very interesting.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

Fair enough.

Frankly, I see the 9th as the weakest in terms of design on the front side. Much of that is tied to the characteristics of the land itself which is a bit lacking in its uniqueness when compared to the sheer array of fascinating holes at the course.

The use of a tee box further to the left of the existing one would make for an interesting dynamic and likely so would an expansion of the bunker on that side. No doubt the limitations of the existing terrain -- e.g. proximity of the 8th green -- would make such a change highly doubtful.

When bunkers are placed in a bottleneck fashion as you see with the 9th you see a fairly conventional way to defend the drive zone. This is added by the nature of a straight-away teeing area which makes for somewhat of an "either or" execution strategy.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Slightly changing the topic, but are there any courses in Arizona that you like as well as Black Mesa? Where would Paa-Ko Ridge fall amongst AZ courses for you? While I like many courses in AZ I think those two hold their own with any of them. I know you like BM better of the two, so more interested in the comparison with AZ than against each other.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

There's nothing that's strictly public in AZ that comes remotely close to the qualities of Black Mesa, IMHO. And that includes such well-regarded layouts often cited on GCA such as Apache Stronghold and Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa.

Black Mesa is the better by far of those two in terms of land, routing and consistently higher and more comprehensive shot values.

Now, if you factor in the private courses of AZ that's another story because the competition from that side is much better.

I really like the original 18 at Whisper Rock that Lefty and Gary Stephenson did - I've heard good reports on the 2nd 18 there done by TF. I'd rate the original 18 at WR on par with the big bananna of the valley area -- Desert Forest. I also like Chirichua at DM and believe Jack's team did a superb job at Outlaw but I would not place it at the same plane as BM. I also like what Jim Engh did at Blackstone in Peoria but it's not a top ten choice for me. Still worth checkng out -- ditto what Lehman did at Verrado. Be very interested to see what course additions are possible in the west valley area of Buckeye and points further west -- assuming H20 and the housing market can sustain such a push.

I was at one time a mega fan of Geronimo at DM but the course was altered a few years back and the "new" layout is not the same as what it was when it opened. The long par-4 16th at Geronimo is a fantastic long par-4 when played from the extreme green tees on the other side of the canyon. Ditto the delicious closing par-3 with the statue of the famed indian warrior in the background.

You mentioned a few other AZ layouts previously and I would place Chapparal Pines and the orignal 18 at Forrest Highlands among the better AZ choices. The Rim is a pleasant diversion but it's more eye-candy than outstanding archtecture for me.

In regards to Paa-Ko Ridge I like the course immensely but when compared to BM -- it's closer to #3 in all of NM then it is to #1 for me. What's really amazing is the vast potential for NM golf to be really special - I guess that will depend upon the market and the contributions of the architects who eventually decide to work there.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Thanks for the observations. I do think Black Mesa and Paa-Ko Ridge are better than any of the public courses I've played in Arizona and the only one of the private clubs I've played that I like as well or maybe a smidge better is Forest Highlands Canyon. I haven't seen Whisper Rock or Desert Mountain. It would be interesting to me if the NM duo would get more national credit if they were in Colorado or Arizona.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

So much of the debate concerning visibility and attention comes down to people making the trek to those locations and seeing them firsthand. It's not the state themselves -- although Colorado and Arizona are both quality 21st century states because of the availability of land to build courses.

Black Mesa, for me, is no less in quality than what you see with Pacific Dunes. For some -- that comparison may leak water -- but it doesn't for me.

Too much of GCA is tied to certain designers receiving the bulk of attention. No doubt a number of these gents are extremely talented and a number of their designs clearly deserve the attention they get. But, it's a major league stretch to assume every one of their designs is a home run and that every design by the competition is light weight when compared. I've traveled a good in my 50 years of living and I know that's not the case.

If you flipped the name of Baxter Spann (designer of BM) with the name of another more "noted" or "established" star the results would be far different IMHO.

The same holds true for Paa-Ko Ridge -- although I see that layout as being a good bit lower than my take on Black Mesa. Nonetheless, Paa-Ko is a solid effort by architect Ken Dye and is a must play when in the greater Albuquerque area.

Andy, try to keep this mind, plenty of what you see on GCA follows the pattern of the herd mentality. I get plenty of people who opine privately to me that they really like other courses but don't want to post in order to avoid the predictable critiques that they are misguided in their preferences.

New Mexico has great potential and if the various Pueblos are able to build stellar courses then the overall profile will only increase.

The Land of Enchantment is well titled and the possibility for even more outstanding golf courses is clearly present. Time will tell on that front.

p.s. Be sure to play Whisper Rock when you can. If you can also access Desert Mtn -- the Chirichua, Geronimo and Outlaw layouts are also worth playing. One sleeper? Try Weiskopf's layout called Silverleaf -- just off McDonald & Pima in Scottsdale, if memory serves.

[CHrisB]

Andy, try to keep this mind, plenty of what you see on GCA follows the pattern of the herd mentality. I get plenty of people who opine privately to me that they really like other courses but don't want to post in order to avoid the predictable critiques that they are misguided in their preferences.

Matt,
I guess what you're saying here is that the prevailing "wisdom" of GCA is that courses like Black Mesa, who are designed by designers by Baxter Spann, can't be as good as more favored courses designed by more favored architects.

But just how good do you think Black Mesa is compared to courses that are more readily accepted as great or very good? (I think BM is very very good, by the way.)

I know courses of different styles can be hard to compare, but what are some of the courses in your area that you would put on the same "level" as Black Mesa?

Is it on a level with Baltusrol? Congressional? Ridgewood? Baltimore CC? Hidden Creek? Aronimink? Huntingdon Valley? Philly CC? Atlantic City? any of the better courses in and around NYC/Long Island?

If there was one far more familiar/recognizable course that you would say most favorably compares to Black Mesa, what would it be?

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
There's no question the areas are very different, one only has to make the drive from Albuquerque across to Holbrook, AZ and down through Payson etc to see all the various terrain in between and I agree that there will be more golf in New Mexico eventually. Most of the courses even now have been built in the last 10-15 years, although there are not many local golfers all things considered in New Mexico so it may require more transplants for things to take off, if it ever does.

There's a lot in Phoenix I haven't seen, but I have all the ones you mentioned on the radar certainly. I think Arizona especially benefits over New Mexico because the northerners can go there in the winter when the snow is flying and play in 75 degrees and sunshine whereas Albuquerque might be 50 degrees in January and not that much warmer in February.

I do think "name" architects count for something especially amongst GCA'ers. I think GCA'ers are more likely to go see something from architects that are willing to take the time to post here which can be a quality learning experience. Some here certainly take that farther than I do, but to each their own.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

People who want to see quality golf should not simply blindly follow the path of the "name" architect. I don't doubt these gents have and will likely produce stellar courses in the future. But, it's a big time stretch, as I said previously, for anyone to remotely believe that such people hit home runs with each design.

The issue is really keeping an open mind and frankly there are more than a few on this site who see design in a fairly limited manner. No doubt personal preferences and tastes are at issue and that's fine. I've always made it a point to ask the locals when I visit where they play and what's really new and exciting. In my many travels -- willingness to keep an open mind and going beyond the "tried & true" can often result in some entertaining and enjoyable rounds of golf at places you may never have thought possible.

It's for that reason that NM has plenty of promise provided the Pueblos engage golf beyond being nothing more then empty holes in the ground -- see the outcome at Towa as one clear example. We shall see ...


Chris:

My responses are in CAPS below each paragraph you previously posted.

*****

I guess what you're saying here is that the prevailing "wisdom" of GCA is that courses like Black Mesa, who are designed by designers by Baxter Spann, can't be as good as more favored courses designed by more favored architects.

YES, THAT'S RIGHT. TOO MUCH OF GCA IS NOTHING MORE THAN A PROPAGANDA MILL FOR A CERTAIN TYPE OF DESIGN STYLE THAT CERTAIN PEOPLE BELIEVE IS THE BE-ALL / END-ALL. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT BUT DESIGN IS NOT LIMITED TO JUST ONE INTERPRETATION IMHO.

*****

But just how good do you think Black Mesa is compared to courses that are more readily accepted as great or very good? (I think BM is very very good, by the way.)

I know courses of different styles can be hard to compare, but what are some of the courses in your area that you would put on the same "level" as Black Mesa?

Is it on a level with Baltusrol? Congressional? Ridgewood? Baltimore CC? Hidden Creek? Aronimink? Huntingdon Valley? Philly CC? Atlantic City? any of the better courses in and around NYC/Long Island?

If there was one far more familiar/recognizable course that you would say most favorably compares to Black Mesa, what would it be?

CHRIS, THE BEST WAY FOR ME TO EXPLAIN IT IS THAT I WOULD NOT HESITATE TO TRAVEL AND PLAY BLACK MESA FROM NEW JERSEY. I WOULD NOT SAY THAT FOR PLENTY OF OTHER COURSES -- INCLUDING THE LIKES OF BALTIMORE CC, HIDDEN CREEK PHILLY CC, ACCC, BALTUSROL, CONGRESSIONAL AND ARONIMINK, TO NAME JUST A FEW.

I HAVE A MEGA AMOUNT OF RESPECT FOR THE REALLY SUPREME COURSES IN THE NORTHEAST BUT TOO MANY OF THE LESSER ONES (some of them have even garnered top 100 status) HAVE SIMPLY GLOMMED ON TO THE SPOTLIGHT THAT THE TRULY ELITE HAVE CAST. JUST BECAUSE CERTAIN COURSES HAVE TRADITION (THE PREFERRED WAY OF SAYING THE COURSE(S) ARE OLD) DOESN'T MEAN THAT QUALITY MODERN COURSES CANNOT BE ACHIEVED -- EVEN IN AREAS OF THE COUNTRY FEW GIVE PAUSE TO CONSIDER VISITING.

CHRIS, LET ME GIVE YOU ONE CLEAR EXAMPLE WHERE THE TOTAL ARCHITECTURE YOU GET FROM BLACK MESA IS BEYOND ANOTHER TOP NOTCH PUBLIC COURSE I HAVE PLAYED MANY, MANY TIMES -- BETHPAGE BLACK. I HAVE PLAYED BB OVER 200 TIMES IN MY LIFETIME -- IT IS CLEARLY A SPECTACULAR LAYOUT BUT ALAS THE POWERS-THAT-BE HAVE TWISTED THE REAL GLORY OF THAT LAYOUT INTO A GOLF DESIGN FORM EQUIVALENT TO THAT OF BARRY BONDS !

BLACK MESA IS A BETTER OVERALL COURSE THAN BB, IMHO. THE ISSUE IS THAT BB HAS HOSTED A US OPEN AND WILL AGAIN IN '09. VISIBILITY HAS SO MUCH TO DO WITH THE RATINGS MADE BY SO MANY PEOPLE. BLACK MESA IS EASILY AMONG THE TOP 50 COURSES I HAVE PLAYED. I NEVER GROW BORED BY WHAT I NEED TO DO WHEN PLAYING THE COURSE. FEW COURSES CAN REALLY HOLD UP TO THAT STANDARD GIVEN THE RANGE AND DIVERSITY OF COURSES I HAVE PLAYED IN MY LIFETIME.

CHRIS, I'M GLAD YOU ARE A FAN OF THE COURSE. IF I HAD TO THROW FORWARD ANOTHER MODERN COURSE THAT I SEE COMPARING FAVORABLY WITH BLACK MESA I'D SAY PACIFIC DUNES ALTHOUGH THE SETTINGS ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THE RICH ARRAY OF DESIGN DETAILS ARE ABUNDANTLY PRESENT WITH EACH AND EVERY HOLE.  

[Matt_Ward]

Chris B:

Be most interested in any comments you had with my detailed responses to the questions you raised.

No doubt when speaking about courses the sheer distance one cares to travel is a great way to assess the qualities of any course.

Andy T:

You mentioned a desire to play in a few AZ locales. Be sure to check out the greater Prescott area -- nothing of national or world class level but a number of good layouts (e.g. Stone Ridge) to be worth a peak when time allows.

[CHrisB]

Matt,
Sorry I have been traveling for a while and have been away from the DG. I appreciate your responses and it really gives me a sense of just how good you think Black Mesa is--I haven't played all of the courses you referenced, but I am familiar enough with most of them to sense that putting Black Mesa in their company or ahead of them is legitimate and high praise.

Here's my take from earlier in the thread:

I too thought it was a tremendous golf course, and as far as moderns go, I found myself as enthusiastic about this course after a first play as I did after playing courses like Pacific Dunes, Friar's Head, Bandon Trails, Erin Hills and Victoria National for the first time. In my opinion, Sand Hills is on a completely different level but that doesn't detract from Black Mesa at all. There probably isn't a more thrilling/unique golf course any closer to me here in Austin, TX (unless Prairie Dunes is closer...might have to check Mapquest for that).

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

I'm just happy that others on this site have made it a point to trek to Black Mesa -- I mean it's great to have such a stellar community like Santa Fe just 20 miles southeast of the course.

Your comments in your last post are quite complimentary given the nature of the other courses you lumped together (although I don't rate Bandon Trails in the same league with Black Mesa).

One quick question -- was there any element at Black Mesa that surprised you given what you knew about the course prior to playing it?

T h a n k s . . .

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