[John Kavanaugh]

... but I am the poster boy of having a few tees stored in every nook and cranny of our house.  

I have numerous red pencils with erasers from a not to be named golf club ... the quality of the pencils are quite good and come in quite handy when driving in your car and keeping in your pocket when doing home improvement projects.

Perhaps I should send some to Sergio and point out how the eraser works.

Whew...I thought the most handsome man on the board was gonna chime in on divorce and I was going to have to say that with his looks I couldn't stay married either.

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a good one.  If I don't leave right now I will be late driving over an hour to see WWE Raw in person.  I love morality.  I am a Pro-Wrestling snob...

[John Kavanaugh]

One more true story.  If you are going to be my friend and leave your wife, trade up.  A couple of years ago a golfing buddy left his wife for another woman.  I later saw him at the club with the fat slob he chose and we have not played golf together since.  I just can't face the guy.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Please name an arcane rule of that you speak.

If I am playing only with friends, and not in a tournament run by any organized body, association, or club, and I mark my ball on the putting green and then put it in my pocket; I am not concerned that I may accidentally pull a different ball out of my pocket.  I would never do this in an actual tournament, but in a game with friends I have no problem doing this as there is no intent to just have a "putting ball" and I would have no problems with posting that score.  (Although I never post scores and have never had a USGA handicap.)

When I used to play at Normandie Golf Course in my youth, the group of friends I played with had a standing rule - improve the lie, but not the swing, stance, or flight.  I believe playing on a very beat-up public golf course we actually played a more authentic version of golf then some professional tournaments where 1/2 the course is GUR or played as "lift, clean, and place."

I play very close to the rules of golf, but there are certain rules necessary only for tournament golf that are required to verify no one tries to unfairly take advantage of a situation.  The people with whom I play my regular golf, if they "respect" the rules, I am not concerned about certain rule violations that do not result in unfair advantage.

I respect the rule that one can not give club advice before a shot, but I have no issue with discussing advice "after the shot".  But I also have no difficulty complying with that rule during tournament play.

The other perfect example is the "distance penalty" for OBs and lost balls.  I would be furious if the group in front of me at a crowded muni came back to the tee box to re-hit.  I will always try to hit a provisional (and I do declare that I am hitting a provisional, and I only use it for an OB or a lost ball and never for an unplayable), but if myself or a playing companion are at Forest Park and the ball is lost, we will drop as near as possible to where the ball was lost and apply two penalty strokes.

These items are the equivalent of going 4 miles over the speed limit.  And this is from a person who will not even keep $1.00 incorrect change, or even knowingly $0.25 incorrect change, even if I am at a fast food restaurant or the most overpriced ball park.

[Tom Huckaby]

I think it is rude for a golfer you have just met to ask you what you do for a living or about your family.

As do I, but somewhere along the line when you invite him home for dinner you may well find out, then what?

Bob

Bob,

I have lived in the same house now for 12 years and have never had a friend who was not related to me over for dinner.  Even the GCAers who have visited me have stayed in our cabin and not even seen the location of my house.  It is kinda my private place.

I don't know AwsHuckabilly.  I agree with John here.  While I wouldn't chastise a divorced man or woman, I certainly hold a lot of respect for folks holding together a successful partnership over many years.  Its hard work and a credit to all who succeed.  To me, this says something about how they take on commitment and their ability to be loyal or if not totally loyal able to overcome hickups in a relationship.  Getting married was the most serious decision I ever took and to fail would be a huge blow to my self esteem - much more so than losing a job or having to take on work that I thought below my "station" in life.  

Ciao

Sean - you don't agree with John, as you state:

While I wouldn't chastise a divorced man or woman

He DID chastise such.

Hey, I'm a guilt-ridden Catholic and as much pro-marriage as the next man.

I've just enjoyed John's tap-dancing to rid himself from this one.  He's been positively Bojangles-esque.  

TH

[Kyle Harris]

Cory Lewis,
My standard answer to "Is it going to rain" is: "Eventually", and to the question "How long before it stops" my favorite reply is: "Don't know, but the record is forty days and forty nights".  

They rank right up there with the caller who asks: "Are you open?" to which I'm always tempted to say(and do, occasionally) "No, I just like come in on beautiful days like this to answer the phone".

You gotta have some fun with the clientele.


Ray Richard,
Is it the Northern Pros, the wiffle balls or the rope, or the rope the wiffle balls and the Northern Pros?



Personal snobbery: Grumblers and whiners, time wasters and those with no time to waste, and golf factories.

Caller: What's the tee sheet look like today?
Kyle: Black and white, a few lines and the names of people playing are listed next to the time they wish to play.

[Bob_Huntley]

I think it is rude for a golfer you have just met to ask you what you do for a living or about your family.

As do I, but somewhere along the line when you invite him home for dinner you may well find out, then what?

Bob

Bob,

I have lived in the same house now for 12 years and have never had a friend who was not related to me over for dinner.  Even the GCAers who have visited me have stayed in our cabin and not even seen the location of my house.  It is kinda my private place.

I don't know AwsHuckabilly.  I agree with John here.  While I wouldn't chastise a divorced man or woman, I certainly hold a lot of respect for folks holding together a successful partnership over many years.  Its hard work and a credit to all who succeed.  To me, this says something about how they take on commitment and their ability to be loyal or if not totally loyal able to overcome hickups in a relationship.  Getting married was the most serious decision I ever took and to fail would be a huge blow to my self esteem - much more so than losing a job or having to take on work that I thought below my "station" in life.  

Ciao

John,

You are indeed a private man and are to be congratulated on keeping things that way. However, whatever you do don't go to Italy as the way of life there is to fill up your home with dinner guests. Come to think of it, we do the same here in California.

Sean,

You wrote, "I certainly hold a lot of respect for folks holding together a successful partnership over many years.  Its hard work and a credit to all who succeed."

That is a successful partnership, what about the dysfunctional ones of hateful rows, physical and mental abuse, alcoholism and pure malice. The slamming of doors so that the chidren of this 'Succesful Partnership cower in their bedrooms afraid of the next onslaught. If you have not encountered these in your lifetime I can assure you that they do exist.

In full disclosure I would say that I have been happily married for thirty two years, but not to my first wife.


Bob

[Sean_A]

I think it is rude for a golfer you have just met to ask you what you do for a living or about your family.

As do I, but somewhere along the line when you invite him home for dinner you may well find out, then what?

Bob

Bob,

I have lived in the same house now for 12 years and have never had a friend who was not related to me over for dinner.  Even the GCAers who have visited me have stayed in our cabin and not even seen the location of my house.  It is kinda my private place.

I don't know AwsHuckabilly.  I agree with John here.  While I wouldn't chastise a divorced man or woman, I certainly hold a lot of respect for folks holding together a successful partnership over many years.  Its hard work and a credit to all who succeed.  To me, this says something about how they take on commitment and their ability to be loyal or if not totally loyal able to overcome hickups in a relationship.  Getting married was the most serious decision I ever took and to fail would be a huge blow to my self esteem - much more so than losing a job or having to take on work that I thought below my "station" in life.  

Ciao

Sean - you don't agree with John, as you state:

While I wouldn't chastise a divorced man or woman

He DID chastise such.

Hey, I'm a guilt-ridden Catholic and as much pro-marriage as the next man.

I've just enjoyed John's tap-dancing to rid himself from this one.  He's been positively Bojangles-esque.  

TH

AwsHuckster

I read John to say that he respected divorced men less than non-divorced men.  That doesn't seem harsh to me if one truly believes in marriage and what it takes to make one work.  I don't call that chastising - though I understand you folks in California are a bit more sensitive to most other folks.  Hey, thats alright, you gotta a right!

Bob

All I can say is shit happens.  Its true that sometimes one (or both) person(s) is a psycho and the marriage should end, but these are the exceptions and nobody but the folks involved can be judge and executioner.  That is why I say I wouldn't chastise a divorced person, but I do heartily praise those that make things work.

Ciao  

Ciao

[Tim Pitner]

You said you would forgive arcane rules...I can not think of any even though I do play under protest while people leave training clubs in their bags.  I always inform my opponent that the club counts even if they take it out and put it in the cart...so it is probably more in their head than not.  If we are playing against a field I would of course not let it go.

Please name an arcane rule of that you speak.

First, I'll give you some background.  Most of the golf I play is not competitive.  While we usually play for some money, it's not large stakes.  And, while I have some playing partners that are quite good golfers, we also usually have at least one person in our group who would be a high handicapper if he had a handicap and who doesn't know the rules all that well (I'm not referring to a particular person).  Some of the better golfers I play with actually don't the rules that well either.

Okay, some scenarios.  These rules aren't that arcane but here goes.  Say someone hits a ball in the long native grass rough (which we have a lot of out here).  If they lose their ball, I won't make them walk back to where they hit, nor will I insist they drop a ball in rough that is unplayable.  I'll let them find a spot from where they can play.  Same with a shot hit out of bounds if it didn't appear to be in danger of going out of bounds and a provisional wasn't played.  I play mostly public courses so walking back to the tee under those situations is just not realistic.  

I know I probably lost you when I said that my golf wasn't competitive and it's played on public courses.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:

If you really do believe this absolute, with no qualifications and no possible reasons to deviate from it:

read John to say that he respected divorced men less than non-divorced men.  That doesn't seem harsh to me if one truly believes in marriage and what it takes to make one work.

Then well, we shall once again agree to disagree.  I just can't believe any reasonable person would believe that, nor make number of marriages a basis for giving respect.  

In any case, I leave you in the capable hands of Mr. Huntley, who you obviously must respect less than me, given I've been married to the same woman for 15 years and he's been married more than once.

And God help you if you respect me more than him.  I mean that with 100% sincerity.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Bob,

Given my personality I believe my empty dinner table has more to do with me then the country it resides.

[Tom Huckaby]

Bob,

Given my personality I believe my empty dinner table has more to do with me then the country it resides.

Excellent introspection.  

BTW, I do get your take re the whole divorce thing; heck in the end it does make a certain sense.  I did however enjoy making you explain it further.  Better help out Sean though - he seems to take it to an extreme you don't!

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Tim,

I will play a leaf rule but never a root rule.  We also play nothing but match play and just go with loss of hole and move on in cases you describe.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It is simple.  If I have two canidates for a position and they are exactly equal with the exception that one has been married to the same woman for 25 years and the other has been divorced I will go with the devout husband just because it is a symbol of commitment and loyalty.  I do not hold it against any man who has been divorced but I admire the man who has not more.

And what if the continuation of the bad marriage has been ruinous/devastating to/for the children ?

Harming and impairing their function for life ?

Then, how do you view the parties ?[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

I never ask a man what he does for a living or about his wife.  I choose my friends based on how much I enjoy their company not how much I respect their decisions.

Can you really be friends with someone whose company you enjoy, but, whom you don't respect as an individual ?

Or, do we recognize, but overlook the negatives and enjoy whatever we can extract from the positives.

Like you, I'm also interested in what "ARCANE" rules are being refered to.  Did you ever get an answer ?

P.S.  Agree about "Trading Up"
        I saw the same thing and asked myself, "What was he
        thinking ?"

[Bill Shamleffer]

Like you, I'm also interested in what "ARCANE" rules are being refered to.  Did you ever get an answer ?

Patrick,

I tried to respond to which rules may be "arcane" in a prior post under this topic.

One is the stroke and distance penalty for lost balls and OBs.  This rule is good for tournament play, but does not work for a game between friends at the club or the local muni.

Second is the rule about putting out with the same ball used to get to the green.  This is rule I make no effort to conform with (nor any effort to violate) in friendly matches.  Although I also agree that it is a good rule for tournaments.

Third is the rule about "no advice".  And for this I am not referring to asking others what club they hit, but rather discussing advice, AFTER all shots were played.  This too is a violation of the rules, but God help us if my friends and I need to penalize ourselves every time our golf banter results in a violation of this rule.

I think the spirit of the rules of golf make the game special.  I ALWAYS play the ball down; tee between the markers, not in front and no more than two club lengths behind; declare when hitting a provisional; and know and conform to the proper way to drop when taking an unplayable.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Shivas,

Per the "no advice" rule I am referring to giving advice about ones swing.  If someone I am playing with, and possibly even playing for a few dollars, asks me to make a comment about his swing position, and I offer my advice, I believe in tournament play we would each, rightfully, be subject to a 2 stroke penalty.

Perhaps I am wrong about my interpretation of rule 8.1.

Of course if my brother is asking for this advice I will not be penalized as I will say, "Let’s wait till after I win a few bucks from you, then we will work on at the range."

[PThomas]

But that being said, I still find it odd to look down on someone who has been divorced.  Mr. Huntley's post speaks loudly to me.

I wonder too, in this group of 1500 rather avid golfers, how may are still married to the same woman they first married?  I'd have to guess this group has a rather high divorce rate.  Golf is not good for marriages, as you know.

TH

Me!  17 years.  My only marriage advice to the single guys out there is "measure twice, cut once."  

Too many men get married without giving real, serious thought to what their future wife will be like in her 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s etc.  They may think of it in terms of deterioration of her body and looks, but far too few think of it in terms of the evolution of her mind, spirit and character.  

I married a woman that I KNEW would grow into a spectacular "older" lady.  Halfway through that progression, I am glad I put the time and effort into really understanding her well enough to be able to make a reasoned prediction of how she would evolve.  

me too...19 years this Sept....and she even plays a little golf!

[Richard Choi]

Speaking of marriages and divorces...

My brother used to be a urologist at a private hospital frequented by well-heeled clients.

His most popular surgery was Vasectomy. Usually guys in late 30's or 40's who have had enough.

His 2nd most popular surgery was Reverse Vasectomy. The same guys come back about 10 to 15 years later with a trophy wife in tow (who MUST have a scion).

So Shivas, I would say you are still within a wedge shot of the second scenario so I wouldn't be so quick to look down on divorced guys;)

[Richard Choi]

To tie into GCA, it's like joining a club.  Lots of guys fall in love with ball-buster courses and when their game is toast at 63, they start thinking "why the hell do I want to put myself through that again?" When I play a course, I ask myself "could I see taking my last breath on earth on this course?"  

Hmmm... what does that say about guys like Kavanaugh who join multiple clubs?

[Craig Sweet]

Hmmm...lots of "snobs" out there....certainly golf does not hold the exclusive membership on snobbery...

That said, I'm a snob when it comes to golf balls...there's only three brands and models that I'll play...Pro V1X....Srixion URS and the Bridgestone B330S

[Tim Bert]

Please name an arcane rule of that you speak.

The other perfect example is the "distance penalty" for OBs and lost balls.  I would be furious if the group in front of me at a crowded muni came back to the tee box to re-hit.

That's so funny, Bill.   On my honor, if I ever am at a crowded muni and a guy in front of me trudges back to the tee to reload, I will not only shake the man's hand, but offer to buy this man of priniciple and his entire equally-principled foursome a drink after the round!

I did this once.  I was playing at a course that I didn't know too well, and my partners had played many times before.  I hit a tee shot a little further left than I intended.  They assured me there was no problem.  I got to the ball and there were white stakes that I couldn't see from the tee.  Well, the course was crowded, but we weren't going anywhere fast anyway.  I was playing the best round of golf that I had played in several years, and I refused to give up the real score 11 holes in.  I went back, teed it up again, made 7 on the hole, and went on to break 80 for the first time in many years.


I wasn't trying to be a man of honor, and I wasn't trying to hold anyone up.  It was sort of humiliating trudging back to the tee, but the circumstances dictated the decision in my opinion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Like you, I'm also interested in what "ARCANE" rules are being refered to.  Did you ever get an answer ?

Patrick,

I tried to respond to which rules may be "arcane" in a prior post under this topic.

One is the stroke and distance penalty for lost balls and OBs.  This rule is good for tournament play, but does not work for a game between friends at the club or the local muni.

HOW does it not work ?

Especially with a lost ball ?

When a ball is lost, noone knows where it is.
Stroke and distance eliminates the problems and controversies with respect to "WHERE" to proceed from.

Say you're in a match and you come to a dogleg hole and you try to hit it over the corner.  You hear the ball hitting trees, out of sight, but, you can't find it.   You want to drop it 50 yards closer to the hole or where you can see the green.
Your opponent wants you to drop it in the middle of a briar patch with no shot.  HOW DO YOU RESOLVE THE SITUATION ?

Stroke and distance does it instantly, conveniently, consitently and fairly, EVERY TIME.

There's a reason the rules have evolved over the centuries and maintained the integrity of the game so well.

Think about the rules you want to alter or disregard, think about how they evolved and then think of the consequences associated with altering or dismissing them.

Look before you leap.[/color]

Second is the rule about putting out with the same ball used to get to the green.  This is rule I make no effort to conform with (nor any effort to violate) in friendly matches.  Although I also agree that it is a good rule for tournaments.

While there wouldn't be the controversy associated with the Stroke and Distance issue on the lost ball, it may be an issue of one golfer trying to get an edge on another.  And, when's the last time you saw that rule enforced at the local, non-tournament level ?[/color]

Third is the rule about "no advice".  And for this I am not referring to asking others what club they hit, but rather discussing advice, AFTER all shots were played.  This too is a violation of the rules, but God help us if my friends and I need to penalize ourselves every time our golf banter results in a violation of this rule.

Could you give me an example of how your banter would result in a penalty ?

Suppose, on the first hole, that you were playing in a foursome and two matches were being played.
Golfer A against Golfer B and Golfer C against Golfer D.
You're golfer A.
Golfer D hits a great approach shot over a blind ridge from the right side of the fairway/rough which lands on/in front of the green and rolls to 5 feet.  You approach him and say, "great shot, what club did you hit ?"  He says, "5-iron"
You say, "where did you aim it ?"  He says, "At that off green tree with the high bare trunk"   Your match with Golfer B goes to the 19th hole, where you find yourself in the exact same spot as Golfer D.   How do you think your opponent feels about you having received advice after Golfer D hit his shot earlier in the round ?

Is there any difference in what you did, versus, asking Golfer D the same question right before you were about to play your approach on the 19th hole ?

How many times have you personally experienced that rule being called during a friendly match ?[/color]

I think the spirit of the rules of golf make the game special.  I ALWAYS play the ball down; tee between the markers, not in front and no more than two club lengths behind; declare when hitting a provisional; and know and conform to the proper way to drop when taking an unplayable.

Perhaps that's because you've SELECTED those rules as rules that you agree with and choose to play by, however, someone else may have selected another set of rules that they prefer to play by, thus creating the dilema.[/color]

[size=4x]
When the rules are broken at leisure,
The GAME ceases to be GOLF.[/color][/size]

[Richard Boult]

I seriously don't get why some people are snobby about golf. I just love the game, but can't see why what someone wears, how they play, or what equipment they play with would bother anyone else as long as they're not inconsiderate of others.

I don't care if you don't tuck in your shirt, wear a belt, take your hat off indoors, wear golf shoes...

I like playing with strangers, tourists, plumbers, CEOs, doctors, men, women, kids, seniors... even snobs

I don't mind if you take a call on your cell phone, just don't overdo it

I don't mind if you drink on the course, just don't get obnoxious

And I certainly don't care if you've been divorced, or not!

Just keep it moving (be considerate) and don't throw your golf club (be mature)!

[Adam Clayman]

Patrick, I agree.

We should come up with the new name(s).

I choose Ralph.

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