Forgive me but the players who can master hitting fairways and greens usually win the big time events. Seve was successful in venues in which driving the ball accurately wasn't such a big deal. More power to him. But when you assess true greatness -- not just the bravado, guile, savvy and charisma elements -- you need to really look a bit deeper at overall greatness. Great players can win anywhere and frankly as I said to you previously -- I see the gap between Snead and Ballesteros to be far greater than the one between Trevino and Hogan.

Great players can win anywhere - except Augusta in Trevino's case. Of course, he was very unlucky - there were a couple of occasions he finished no more than 6 or 7 shots from the eventual winner.

Plus, all Seve's major wins were at courses which didn't need driving accuracy at all - such as that notorious open field of Lytham where he won twice.

I couldn't agree more with Matt Ward's assessment of the relative significance of the US Open and the Masters. One is our national championship and the other is a product of shrewd marketing and position on the calendar.  There is no comparison no matter how much Jim Nance gushes about Augusta in early April.

Whose national championship?  Golf is an international game, played by international players.

The British Open is the most important because it is where the game began, the rest of them are competing for second place.

Andrew,

I was comparing the US Open to the Masters, with the former being more significant in my opinion.  Personally I put the US Open and Open Championship on the same level.

Seve is like other notable players who stopped winning majors in their early 30's (eg Palmer and Watson).  Eventually he lost his game completely, which was a tragic loss for golf because he was such an electrifying player.  Tony Jacklin once said that it "grieved" him that Seve lost his game.

Trevino won his first and last majors 17 years apart.  In modern golf I think Jack (24 years) and Player (19 years) are the only guys winning majors over a longer time span.  Most players in modern golf who win 5 + majors (Arnie, Watson, Faldo, Seve, Hogan) are done winning majors after about 10 years from winning their first. If Tiger continues winning majors in bunches into a second decade he will be in the minority.

This interview took place in the summer of 1994 -- just prior to the Senior Tour stop at Chester Valley in the greater Philadelphia area / Bell-Atlantic event. Getting Lee to talk about a myriad of subjects made for a wonderful time together.

*****

Lee Trevino -- Uncensored !

Coming into the golfing scene in 1967 with a sixth place finish in the U.S. Open, Lee Trevino has forged one of the most unique and prolific careers golf has ever seen.

Since that time 27 years ago, Lee has entertained and amused golf fans throughout the world with his non-stop banter and one-liners. Beyond his effervescent personality is one of the game's fiercest competitors and champions.

The Trevino portfolio is indeed voluminous. The winner of six major championships, the last coming in 1984 in winning the PGA at age 44. Lee has continued his stellar play on the Senior Tour. Since tunring 50 at the end of 1989 Trevino has been nothing less than dominant. Through 1993 Lee has garnered 18 titles and by adding four more in 1994 (through Bell-Atlantic) he is closing in on the all-time winner on the Senior Tour, Miller Barber with 24 wins.

Trevino's record on the PGA Tour is also impressive. Lee's first professional win came in the 1968 U.S. Open at Oak Hill. In that championship Trevino became the first golfer to ever shoot four rounds under-par and all in the 60's. In 1971 Lee won the Open Championships of the United States, Britain and Canada all within a four-week period. In the 1971 U.S. Open at Merion, Trevino bested Jack Nicklaus in a historic 18-hole playoff. The 1971 season earned Trevino Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year and he was selected by the Associated Press as its Athlete of the Year.

Trevino also won the 1971 and 1972 British Opens along with the 1974 PGA Championship. Trevino won his record fifth Vardon Trophy in 1980 with a scoring average of 69.73 along with three tour wins including the Tournament Players Championship.

Lee has been a member of six Ryder Cup teams and served as captain of the 1985 squad. Trevino was selected by his peers as PGA Player-of-the-Year in 1971 and was inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame in 1981. All in all, Trevino won 27 tournaments on the PGA Tour and is 18th on the all-time money winning list.

Interviewed at the Bell Atlantic tournament in late May, Lee agreed to an interview in which he provides a no-holds barred straight talk assessment of himself, his competition and golf in general. Unlike many of his contemporaries who usually offer nothing but standard replies to the toughest of questions, Trevino goes full bore and straight ahead in the same manner as one his patented left-to-right tee shots.

Before going onto the Senior Tour, Lee served as NBC's primary analyst in the late 1980's. Trevino's commentary was fast, loose and above all else expressive. Born in Dallas in 1939 of Mexican-American heritage, Trevino offers his perspectives on the game's future and his own contributions. The Lee Trevino who often leaves his gallery laughing is also deadly serious and thoroughly intuitive in a way which few of his fans may even realize.

Ward:

Your greatest accomplishment in golf?

Trevino:

Without question, beating Nicklaus in a play-off in 1971 at Merion.

Ward:

Biggest disappointment?

Trevino:

Biggest disappointment? Making seven for the ALCAN Golfer-of-the-Year in Portland, OR -- making seven on the par-3 17th after having a four shot lead and losing to Billy Casper.

Ward:

Changing tracks to the major championships this comes up a couple of times -- the Masters Tournament, what's the real story behind that Lee?

Trevino:

Never liked the course. I think it's overrated.

Ward:

Did they (Masters officials) treat you in any different way?

Trevino:

No -- no.

Ward:

Again, that's taken out of context.

Trevino:

Always has been. They treated me the same as they did Arnold Palmer and everybody else. My problem with Augusta is I never liked the golf course and I'm the only player who's ever lived that's had the guts enough to tell them that -- and nobody else has the guts to say that. Every player goes to Augusta -- the majority of them hate the place, but they don't have the guts to say it -- I do. And every time they ask me about Augusta I say they gave me the place I would not go play it today. I thought it was overrated. You'e also got to understand the media writes good things about Augusta because if they don't they might not get invited back.

Ward:

You mean they won't get their press credentials?

Trevino:

A lot of people don't understand that if you are in the media in the U.S. or in the world you have to be invited to write at Augusta. And if you write something derogatory about the Masters then you don't get invited back. And that's the way the ball game works over there. They're always afraid to tell the truth about the golf course ... do you understand, when they say it's a great golf course I almost barf everytime they say that simply because they're putting it in with a Baltusrol, with an Oakmont, a Merion, they are putting it in with Oak Hill ... they are putting it with a Pebble Beach. You can't do that.

Ward:

But Lee how much of that's done in general with all courses? The so-called big name syndrome. I'm sure you could name tons of golf courses that are fantastic but are not capable logistically in holding a major championship.

Trevino:

Let me tell you this: these are the same players that play Augusta that never say a word, but bitch about the U.S. Open course every June when they go there. But you see ...

Ward:

Especially when Augusta changed the greens from bermuda to bent ...

Trevino:

They scream at the U.S. Open because the USGA has them too hard, they got them too fast. And they'll scream bloody murder. They tore Pebble Beach (1992) up didn't they? They said this is ridiculous what the USGA did to us here ... that this is preposterous, They did this -- they did that. Then they go to Augusta and they're chipping balls in the water and then they're saying that was beautiful (laughter). They make me sick those gutless bastards -- they really do.

Ward:

Lee you've won multiple majors -- does it bum you in the side when somebody wins one or two majors and then they say the guy's great?

Trevino:

Oh year.

Ward:

The word great is now being used interchangeably with everything. I mean you have won six majors and countless other tournaments.

Trevino:

You've got to understand the word great is used too loosely. I see it mostly with the announcers.

Ward:

Okay. You mean a lot of loose talk going around.

Trevino:

Especially on the ladies' tour. I mean Mary Bryant is a good friend of mine. But every golfer coming down the fairway ia great player to her -- whether they've won one tournament or none. Now all of a sudden if you ask her when she sees Nancy Lopez and she will say she's a great player too. All of a sudden she's put this player that's never won a golf tournament -- or won one -- in the same category as Nancy Lopez. You can't call those players great -- Jack Nicklaus was great.

Ward:

With that in mind, let me give you some names of some people. Is Nick Falso great?

Trevino:

Not yet.

Ward:

Ballesteros? You know he's coming back after recently winning the Benson and Hedges International Open.

Trevino:

No, I don't think he's great.

Ward:

Greg Norman?

Trevino:

No.

Ward:

Let's just say -- obviously Gary Player -- right?

Trevino:

Great. Sure.

Ward:

Raymond Floyd:

Trevino:

No.

Ward:

So you are talking only about a very sparing few -- a handful.

Trevino:

What would you call Nicklaus, Gary Player and Arnold Palmer?

Ward:

The greatest -- I would think so. but I'm not inside the ropes. You're inside the ropes and you've played against them.

Trevino:

These were the guys that were great. Raymond Floyd is a helluva player -- I'm a helluva player, the other ones you mentioned are helluva players. But to put them in a category with a Nicklaus, or a Palmer or a Player -- you can't do that.

Ward:

When did you know you arrived out on Tour? What was the telltale sign that said I'm out here and I know I belong?

Trevino:

When I won my second tournament (1968). I won the U.S. Open in June and I won the Hawaiian Open in October of that same year. My deal was that winning one tournament didn't mean all that much but when I won the second one it meant a lot.

Ward:

So what's Lee Trevino really like?

Trevino:

I never look at things that far ahead -- never have. I won't even make a doctor's appointment -- I'll knock on the door and if the guy won't let me in the backdoor to give me a B-12 shot, the hell with him. I'll go get me a pill. I don't make appointments -- I hate to make appointments. A lot of the media say I need to sit down with you for an hour and I usually say good -- catch me. If I tell you I'm going to be there at 3:00 PM -- then I have to be there at 3:00 PM -- and I never do those kind of things. I am the most free wheeling individual you have ever seen. I have no idea what I am going to the next hour. You can be sure it won't be breaking the law you can bet on that.

That's why I enjoy doing what I do. I am the only guy that you have ever seen that plays this game the way I play it -- that never worries about what I'm going to eat for breakfast, lunch, where I'm going to have dinner, when I'm going home -- what I'm going to do there.I just go -- I'm like a duck, I just wonder if I'm going to land over here or land over there. And that's the way I live my life. It's a very easy way to live.

More to follow ...

Matt,

I understand you didn't give Tiger a free pass - but many of the American press do if Seve is the standard for American press bringing up crooked driving. They could barely write an article without referring to 16 at Lytham or the hook he hit  off the 17th tee onto the 7th green at Augusta.

Seve never spoke to me about America but I would make two points.
He was adored by every gallery he played in front of except the American crowds. He understood that but it is not surprsing he enjoyed it less that other places.
He is Spanish and as a nationality it would be fair to say they love their home country,love living there and using the Spanish players I know they were reluctant to ever leave to play golf - which is why I admire Olazabal so much.It is not easy leaving home for so long and it is something American players have never had to deal with.
Australians - not just golfers - by way of contrast grow up dreaming of travelling and seeing the world - and our players are consequently more  easily able to adapt to the American way of life.

Remaining interview ...

Ward:

A typical day for you would be what?

Trevino:

My wife is the one who lets me do all this. She knows me. I ask here if she needs me to do anything and she'll say go ahead and do whatever you have to do and be home say around 2:00 PM. I go out and practice and play golf all morning -- I do it every day seven days a week (editorial note: interesting item in how the Trevino of today laments the amount of time he could not spend with his kids because of his single minded focus to be the best player he could be).

My wife's dad was a golf professional and she's told this is how you make your living and this is what makes you happy. I'm fortunate enough to have such a great lady.

Ward:

How would you explain the differences between the regular tour when you were there with guys such as Ray Floyd as opposed to what the regular tour is tody?

Trevino:

It was (the regular tour) exactly the same thing as what you have now (the senior tour). These guys are funny as hell -- if you had a tape recorder in the locker room (prohibited by the PGA Tour) it would be amazing the material you'd get out of therre. I saw the change when I qualified and played in the 1987 U.S. Open at Olympic in San Francisco. I walked in the locker room and I saw 20 young players and I recognized not one -- but I can understand it's a different generation. They're just sitting there looking around and I asked if any of them had a cigarette. They all kinda looked at each other and said who the hell is this guy (laughter). I asked the locker room attendant where Nicky Price's locker was -- because I know he smokes.

So I went there and get me a pack of Marlboro's. These 20 kids who were sitting there when I lit the cigarette all got up and left and I was alone in the room. Later I finished the round and I went into get a beer and hell the refrigerator was packed with orange juice and grapefruit juice  and all that kind of stuff in there -- nothing to really drink and I knew it was time for me to get out of here because these guys are crazy -- they're just not having any fun. But it's a kind of different grind over there now that they're playin gfor so much money.

Ward:

But is it really good not having a clear #1 player?

Trevino:

It's very difficult to find quote unquote superstars over there -- they'e all fairly even. And that's why they so many winners. They seem to accept it -- they're breaking attendance record all the time - television ratings are good so I don't see where it's bad. I know if I had a golf tournament I'd want John Daly in it because he's the only guy over there who'll move the needle. If John Daly's in your tournament he's worth 10,000 people a day. This young man is starting to realize that.

Ward:

Can you relate to the magnitude of DalPGA victory and its aftermath?

Trevino:

I was probably in the same situation that he was. I won an Open at the age of 28 1/2 -- he was 25 when he won the PGA. I was much wilder than he was -- except nobody paid that much attention then. I drank just as much -- raised just as much hell and stayed out all night. I did all those things. But they're more on him today than they were with me. Give him all the credit but let's not forget that Palmer, for instance, brought golf out of the dark ages as as far as television is concerned. No individual has walked God's earth that has more class than Arnold Palmer. If you looked up the definition of class in the dictionary his picture would be next to the word.

It's tough when you give an individual (Daly) that much money -- it's no different with anybody. Give a guy that much money -- man we can buy all the beer we want -- we're going to raise some hell (laughter). Tell you a funny story. I talked to Daly twenty minutes before he picked up his ball in Kapalua. Daly came to me and said he had had enough. I said what's wrong son? You see I've known Daly since he was 17 years old. He said the Commissioner's giving him all this heat and he's thinking about going to Europe and playing. I said, "John, we could charge $20 a piece for you to hit 200 drivers and get 10,000 people over there in a flash. I daid you don't understand your leverage over here. I talked to him on how to straighten up and doing right and then a few minutes later he picks up his ball and leaves the course. And I said so much for that deal (laughter).

Ward:

Thank God you are not on the talk shows.

Trevino:

I think he had to go through this and it certainly looks like he's on the right track and I'm certainly happy for him -- but I'm happy for golf too.

Ward:

You came from an impoverished childhood and you mentioned your Mexican-American heritage. Are you concerned with the growth rate of minorities in the urban areas? Can golf really involve these kids?

Trevino:

No, no and it's never going to get any better. What's happened is that the caddie has gone by the wayside -- there are no caddies anymore. The only way that there are blacks playing today on the senior tour and the only black playing the regular tour is Jim Thorpe and he's getting up in years too. The day of the minority kid is going because of the caddie situation. What we need to do in this country is we need the PGA involed, the USGA involved, we are going to have to start a caddie program. This is going to take a tremendous amount of work with the club presidents, club members, club professionals, and we are going to have to try to get 25-30 caddies who have to be in school --

Ward:

An an incentive program?

Trevino:

Yes, as an incentive program to bring them out to caddie and every club has to take 25-30 kids to use them as forecaddies initially and then bag caddies in order to introduce them to the game. This is exactly what we went through as kids.

Ward:

Do you really believe that many of the private clubs, particularly the elite ones, will do this?

Trevino:

You are right -- but if we get some to do it then I think others will do it too. It's not going to be forced on them but we need somebody to take the initiative and run with it. I'm convinced that this is theonly way it's possibly ever going to happen. Golf is still a very expensive game. You are not going to get a poor kid who lives in the city -- that's one of the reasons why I never do junior clinis --

Ward:

Because they basically teach the same kind of kids?

Trevino:

They only teach the rich kids.

Ward:

So they never really get an opportunity to cross the tracks?

Trevino:

And don't give me two busloads of kids and bring them from downton to watch me hit golf balls because I don't want to show these kids all of this elaborate clubhouse, this nice green grass and all these Cadillacs int he parking lot and then you put him back on the bus and the likelihood he will never see this place again. If you want to bus these kids out of town twice a week and let them play golf and hit golf balls then I'll be more than glad to help them. I very seldom, if ever, do anything for junior golf -- and I never have. The reason for it is because it's a teaching ground for ricj kids and I've always said that.

Ward:

I've seen stories of you highlighting your gregarious nature but when you leave the course, for the most part, your penchant for privacy becomes paramount. Is that fair or is that taken out of context?

Trevino:

No, it's not taken out of context. When I'm on the golf ocurse I give my fans a thousand percent. When I leave there I don't want to bothered by anybody -- I don't speak to anyone. When a guy sees me in the lobby of hotel what the hell is he going to ask me? Is her going to ask he how the weather is, how the stock market is doing, have I bet any horses or have I had any beers lately?

No, he'll ask me how I'm playing -- he will ask how's Arnie doing -- is Jack playing here -- can you beat Raymond? I don't need that -- I get caddie fees to talk about golf after I leave the course. Once in get in the car and turn that key if I don't speak to another person till the next day it's too soon for me. I don't need to answer all those questions. people think you are suppsoed to be smiling 24 hours a day and talking all the time. It's a show -- Matt -- it's a show but you've got to have your down time too, you see. When I leave the course I don't want to speak to anybody and see anybody.

Ward:

Changing subjects, you came onto the golf scene with a 6th place finish in 1967 at the U.S. Open at Baltusrol, won six majors, won the 1990 Senior Open at Ridgewood and a host of senior events. What gives you an edge whether you're in New Jersey, New York or wherever?

Trevino:

I may be Italian (laughter) with my last name.

Ward:

You mean people confuse you because a vowel is the last letter in your name?

Trevino:

Exactly -- my name means three wines -- Tre-Vino (laughter). I may be Italian and could very well be related to Gene Sarazen (laughter).

Ward:

Is that the secret?

Trevino:

That's the secret -- I should have been born Italian from New Jersey (laughter).

Ward:

Last question - if someone said to you complete this sentence -- Lee Trevino is ...

Trevino:

Honest. Very. If you don't want to hear it bad, don't ask me.

Agreed Nice interview Matt,

And i agree 100% with Lee on the comment about being on the course and off the course.  He gives it his all on the course and is perhaps the greatest "character" of all time.  But off the course he should be able to decompress and not be held up to the perma-smile standard 24/7...

Superb interview.  Thanks for sharing it with us, Matt.

The US Open doesn't count for anything outside of the USA, and neither does the PGA, so only the Masters and British count.

If Trevino was such a fine shotmaker, why didn't he excell at Augusta?  Because he liked his golf straighforward.  Seve liked it anything but.

Even Ben Hogan complimented the shotmaking of Trevino.  Seve couldn't win a US Open because he couldn't recover from the temporary parking lot.

There is no reason Trevino couldn't win at Augusta other than the course got into his head.  I bet his contemporaries would vouch for that.  Maybe his normal low ball flight didn't lend itself to getting close to some of the pin positions as compared to a high ball flight like Nicklaus?  Any comments?

Lets have a bet with our own money on the line for match play.   Seve or Trevino in their prime.  I would never bet against Trevino, he didn't blink in head to head competition.  Its too bad these two were a golf generation apart because there would have been some great Ryder Cup moments.

The 1972 British Open is the best Open ever played, overshadowed by the Watson-Nicklaus duel in '77 but in many ways more compelling. Nicklaus' slam was clearly in his sights, and Trevino and Jacklin were near the top of their form, and probably (along with Player) the very top players at the time (Jacklin had won the '70 US Open by seven strokes, the largest margin in modern times until Tiger's Pebble Beach walk). Trevino chipped in (I believe) four or five times during the tournament, including three times down the stretch in the 3rd round, when Jacklin's brilliant 67 was trumped by Trevino's truly outrageous 66, which included five straight birdies to end the round.

Matt -- I'd suggest Jack wasn't overly cautious; he was only one stroke out of the lead after both the first and second rounds. In the third round, he simply played an indifferent round (a par round of 71) when the leaders went low in benign conditions. Nicklaus -- who usually did not win majors with late-round charges -- made a furious one in '72, and stood alone with the lead halfway through the final round. He actually missed several makeable putts down the stretch, and failed to birdie the par 5 17th. Henry Longhurst was quoted as saying Nicklaus' final round 66 quite easily could have been a 62; he said 66 was about the worst score Nicklaus could have posted that day.

Phil M:

Keep in mind this -- Jack followed almost to the letter the preparation and exection he carried out in winning the '66 event at Muirfield -- that meant keeping driver in the bag for the most part. The main difference was the more birdies were being made in '72 and the top challengers were clearly on their games -- Trevino & Jacklin.

Jack had to eschew caution and be more aggressive in the final round and minus one / two errors was clearly on the doorstep for what would have been an equally magnificent final day charge akin to what Palmer did at Cherry Hills in '60 and Johnny Miller at Oakmont in '73.

P.S. The other thing that too many people miss is just how good a player Tony Jacklin truly was. The devestating set-back at Muirfield was nothing less than a stunning blow -- equivalent to what Palmer felt at Olympic in '66.

Tony Jacklin was simply underrated by a great many American media and too many people simply remember him for the stylish and highly productive manner in which he captained Team Europe during Ryder Cup play.

Gents:

The other aspect to keep in mind about the '86 event that I failed to mention is how Nicklaus had the gran curtain call and how Norman -- needing only a par on the final hole to get to a playoff made a careless bogey -- in some ways the '86 failure may have been the cruelest because Norman could have solidified his place once and for all by defeating Nicklaus. Credit Norman for the final round birdie flourish at the very end -- save for the final hole bogey.