Margaret C,

I'm glad you admitted that you made two mistakes with regard to attributing statements and/or conclusions made by me, that were completely false.

Now let's address the third mistake you made.

Have you read the master plan filed on behalf of Bandon Dunes, as of the date of reading this question ?
A simple yes or no will suffice.

MDugger commented to another party that Bandon Dunes was all about golf, golf and nothing but golf.  I cited the master plan, which Mike Keiser has filed with the necessary authority/ies.

If you will read that plan you will see that more then golf is contemplated.  It's not a shot at Mike Keiser, as you once again erroneously conclude, it's reality.

If you would have read, with any reasonable degree of comprehension, every one of my posts about Mike Keiser, you would have seen that I have been nothing but complimentary with respect to his vision and his work.

Evidently you didn't understand the questions with respect to degrees of earthmoving, and the retention of a minimalist moniker.

With respect to C&C I've taken no shot at them, I only stated that when architects have the LUXURY of chosing their sites, the product will, invariably be better then when an architect doesn't have that luxury and has to design and build on an inferior site.

Does a doctor who only operates on the healthiest patients have a better mortality ratio then doctors who operate on all patients, including the toughest and most difficult cases ?
It's not a shot, it's reality.

And, if you would have carefully read my posts, you would have seen that I said the exact same thing in reply # 105 that Tom Doak said, only earlier.  So maybe you should have more accurately stated, "thank heavens for Pat Mucci, and ditto for Tom Doak"

I trust that you've been reading your patient's charts more carefully and thoroughly then you read my posts  

Please quote and reference what I say, not what you want me to say to serve your interests.

SPDB,

A skyline green has nothing to do with the view from the green.

It is the view of the green.

It is the view of the green with nothing behind it.... but sky.

It matters not if, behind the green, the fall off is 10 feet or
100 feet.  If nothing is visible behind the green, it is a skyline green.

The 8th at Atlantic comes close to this, yet the falloff is minimal, and if a backround mound was lowered slightly, it would fully qualify as a skyline green.

The next time you play # 18 at NGLA, as you walk up the fairway, even though you can see some distant trees to the left, I think you'll see the similarity between # 5 at The Creek and # 18 at NGLA, both skyline greens.

A Clayman,

I don't believe that I've ever said that to date.
Would you cite for me where I said that ?

But, I'll go on record as saying YES, in some ways it is an inferior site to both Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes.

AWT,

Because it is.

Just like patient mortality rates for surgeons.
When you take only the healthiest patients, your finished product is invariably better then those who take on all patients.

And while you're asking questions, why don't you post under your own name. K ?

Pat -
My point, which you have impliedly conceded to, is that if The Creek were a skyline green, when you arrived at the surface you could go to the back of it and take in that majestic panorama free from any interruption in your vision by trees, similar to the photo you cite in "Golf Clubs of the MGA . Regrettably, and I imagine antithetical to its design, if you walk to the back of the 5th Green and look directly northward, you will be staring into a wall of trees, the same trees that framed the green when you were 140 yards behind, in the fairway.

Most people when they speak of the creek always talk about the view from the 6th tee, I suspect if 5 were a skyline green, they would talk more about the view from 5 green as well. But since it is tucked into a corner of the high part of the course, it is  shielded by trees from the type of panoramic view you the 6th tee affords. Although #5 would be a terrific skyline green, i don't think I would change it. It makes the walk and subsequent tee shot on 6 all the more thrilling, and gives you that "transition" feeling as you move down toward the lower reaches of the course.

I noticed you (again) failed to answer my questions.
I expect a long winded mea culpa upon your return, although I suspect I will get a series of rationalizations qualifying the green as "somewhat skyline" or "effectively a skyline"

Both greens were designed as skyline greens

says who? FACTS, pat. We're not arguing that, our dispute centers on whether they are skyline, not were, or designed as...

You've missed totally the point of a skyline green. Seeing land behind the green? Land? You've got to be kidding me. If the absence of visible land behind a green qualified it as a skyline green I think a substantial percentage of greens in the world would then be skyline.

I'll give you a hint of one thing that negates a skyline green...rhymes with "freeze"  

All I'm saying re: Margaret C is take it easy on her, you misattribute/self-servingly twist points of views all the time.

Just for reference, I'm posting this picture (again) which i'll take down after you respond. Notice the green orientation and which way it requires you to direct your shot:
 

What's this big debate about Creek's #5 green? I was just there---out on the fairway looking at that green. As it is now the green has no skyline effect because there're some massive trees behind the green on the left and on the other side of the drive to the beach club directly behind the green. If all those trees were removed that green would have a great skyline effect from 200yds, 150 yds or maybe even 100 yds out in its fairway. Why? Because there's no ground behind that green higher than the green and when you approach the green you're slightly lower than the green. If there were no trees at all behind that green and to the left of it the green would have an awesome skyline effect and you'd probably have to get almost to the front of #5 green before you saw any land behind it which would probably be Connecticut about 8 miles away across the Long Island Sound.

However, if that 5th green happened to be postitioned about 40 yds right and a bit shorter than it is now (due to the curve of the drive to the beach club) then you'd have a skyline effect from the fairway to it.

Thank you, Tom for validating what I have been trying to explain to Pat Mucci for going on 6 months. Although I'm certain Pat Mucci won't take your word for it, it must be disconcerting knowing that he's alone in his memory of #5 green, and its skyline effect.

With the knowledge that the trees behind 5 are mature, anybody can tell its not a skyline green from the photo above, don't you agree tom?

Pat - its closing in on you. By analogy, you're, at best dormie and you've just duck hooked one into the trees. I'm sitting pretty in the fairway.

AWT,

I'm not defensive, everybody else is when it comes to discussing C&C, minimalism or other sacred topics.

C&C are/have been in demand.

When a variety of developers present them with their project, their property, and they choose only the best, it stands to reason that their product will be superior by the very nature of their selection process.

That's not a slam on anyone, just an assessment of reality.

SPDB,

Because their creators are the same, and the intent the same, a skyline green.

Now you've got me thinking about the 15th at Piping Rock.
Was it created as a skyline green ?

SPDB,

My guess is that CBM fresh from his overseas journey knew what a skyline green was.

The green at # 18 at NGLA is blind until you hit a certain point in the fairway, probably about 100 yards, when the green reveals itself.

Seeing a flagstick, with nothing but sky behind it, is one of the most intimidating views in all of golf.

P.S.  
I'd be very careful about dismissing my theories on NGLA

Pat:

The 15th green at Piping Rock a skyline green? Hardly, not even close and it never was close. I go way back at that course and #15 wasn't in the realm of a "skyline" green. If it's really #15 green you're thinking of, though, I'm betting what you meant is #15 green is "blind" not "skyline". But if it really is a skyline effect you're thinking of at Piping Rock it'd have to be the 13th green not the 15th. #13 isn't "skyline" anymore but years ago when the trees to the left of the indoor tennis courts about 300 yds away were a lot smaller it may have been sort of close but not an actual "skyline" green--not unless you were standing less than 20 yards from it and right underneath it that is!

Could a "skyline green" also be labeled "a green on top of a hill?"

...with nothing behind or framing it except sky.

That is, unless you accept Pat's theory, which subscribes to the notion that it can be 85 foot tall trees.  

"Could a "skyline green" also be labeled "a green on top of a hill?"

rg:

It could indeed provided that when approaching that green on top of a hill from the fairway there's nothing to be seen behind that green except sky! However, if something such as the Snoopy blimp happened to be hovering behind that green then it must temporarily NOT be considered a "skyline" green or in proper golf terminology it must be considered a TNASG (temporarily not a skyline green).