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Darren_Kilfara

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #125 on: October 26, 2006, 11:34:58 AM »
Quote from: Tiger_Bernhardt on October 26, 2006, 11:06:14 AM
Darren, I do not think Muirfield has a model worth following. I love the course, traditions and have enjoyed meeting and getting to know a number of Members. Yet, I find little about the way they handle guests worthy of looking at as a model, including the relationship with my beloved hotel next door.

Tiger, this thread is (or was supposed to be) about a model whereby a very private club with a lot of tradition and a great golf course opens its doors for unaccompanied non-members on a formal basis, in Muirfield's case at certain times on certain days of the week. This model could of course exist with or without the snooty behavior on behalf of the members with which Muirfield is historically associated (although I think your views are out-of-date by a few years, as the attitude really has changed under current management).
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Tony_Muldoon

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #126 on: October 26, 2006, 11:39:32 AM »
Darren, repectfully I think it's you that doesn't get what this thread is all about. If you have all the answers write an essay, don't start a thread.

In the UK these clubs need other peoples money but they don't always like all that goes with it.  In the US they don't need the extra income. You can't separate one from the other.
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Tom Huckaby

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #127 on: October 26, 2006, 11:39:52 AM »
Quote from: Phil Benedict on October 26, 2006, 11:34:27 AM
Aside from Pasatiempo, is there any other top 100 "Classic" course where access is routine?  If not, it really is unique isn't it?

http://www.golfweek.com/americasbest/top100classic.php

I count 8 that are either resort or daily-fee.  So yes, Pasa is pretty unique.

TH
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Phil Benedict

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #128 on: October 26, 2006, 11:43:21 AM »
Quote from: Tom Huckaby on October 26, 2006, 11:39:52 AM
Quote from: Phil Benedict on October 26, 2006, 11:34:27 AM
Aside from Pasatiempo, is there any other top 100 "Classic" course where access is routine?  If not, it really is unique isn't it?

http://www.golfweek.com/americasbest/top100classic.php

I count 8 that are either resort or daily-fee.  So yes, Pasa is pretty unique.

TH

I feel a little silly because I forgot about Pebble Beach and Pinehurst #2.  And I play Yale every year so that fits the bill as well.
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #129 on: October 26, 2006, 11:51:21 AM »
Prairie Dunes walks a tight rope of semi-privateness..I would put it very close to Muirfield in the model sense.

note: Warning to all camels...warning, warning, warning....
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Darren_Kilfara

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #130 on: October 26, 2006, 11:58:58 AM »
Quote from: Tony Muldoon on October 26, 2006, 11:39:32 AM
Darren, repectfully I think it's you that doesn't get what this thread is all about. If you have all the answers write an essay, don't start a thread.

In the UK these clubs need other peoples money but they don't always like all that goes with it.  In the US they don't need the extra income. You can't separate one from the other.

I guess I'm discussing a platonic ideal which can't ever exist, so this is all moot anyway, but given my ideal situation - that an NGLA-type club might open its doors to unaccompanied guests - I don't see why it would perforce have to treat those guests with the level of disdain that certain Muirfield administrators have down the years.

Believe me, I don't have all of the answers, which is why I started this thread in the first place - and I'm pleased to note the example of Pasatiempo, although it seems to have evolved in reverse of what I'm talking about. (Yale is perhaps another interesting example as well.) Anyway, I don't really want to be a thread policeman, so I'll shut up and let this run its course...I know how the internet works, but I still can't help but be bemused about it sometimes! ;)

Cheers,
Darren
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Phil Benedict

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #131 on: October 26, 2006, 12:02:28 PM »
I know this is a diversion from the original point of the thread but by Huck's count less than 10% of the classic top 100 in the States is accessible to anyone who is willing to follow a process (eg Bethpage Black) or pay the price (Pebble Beach).  The other 90% you gotta know somebody to get on the course.

For the equivalent top 100 in the UK and Ireland, the open access % would be what?  Over 90%?

God Save the Queen!
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #132 on: October 26, 2006, 12:04:52 PM »
Phil,

If people could not access the courses on the list they would not be on the list...It is not the members voting.
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Phil Benedict

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #133 on: October 26, 2006, 12:12:07 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on October 26, 2006, 12:04:52 PM
Phil,

If people could not access the courses on the list they would not be on the list...It is not the members voting.


C'mon John.

I am an avid golfer with no particular connections.  If I took a year off I could easily play 90 of the top 100 courses in the UK and Ireland, simply by following the procedures they have for outside play if they are private and paying the price if they are public.

If I set out to do the same thing in the US and used every angle available to me such as having my pro call around, I doubt I would get past 25 of the top 100 classics.

There is simply no comparison as far as access in the Great Britain and the US.
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #134 on: October 26, 2006, 12:17:20 PM »
Phil,

Didn't you just get an invite to play Pine Valley...Your argument befuddles me.
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Phil Benedict

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #135 on: October 26, 2006, 12:26:42 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on October 26, 2006, 12:17:20 PM
Phil,

Didn't you just get an invite to play Pine Valley...Your argument befuddles me.


At this point I am once removed from the actual invitation so I better keep my mouth shut.

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Glenn Spencer

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #136 on: October 26, 2006, 12:50:58 PM »
John,

Is there something wrong with you? I am not asking for myself. I have played enough great golf courses to know that I want to play more of them, but at the same time enough to know that I am not missing anything all that great anyway. I actually was asking a hypothetical question. Good to know that as soon as someone says access, they will still be attacked though. My real question was just to see if anyone thought it would do any good. I wonder if anybody has ever tried doing it for that sole purpose. Some of those memberships are pretty reasonable. Anyway, thanks for thinking the worst.
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #137 on: October 26, 2006, 01:52:39 PM »
Glenn,

Sure there is something wrong with me...That is another stupid question.  
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Glenn Spencer

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #138 on: October 26, 2006, 01:55:16 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on October 26, 2006, 01:52:39 PM
Glenn,

Sure there is something wrong with me...That is another stupid question.  

You have got me once again. ;D
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michael j fay

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #139 on: October 26, 2006, 02:15:07 PM »
The Muirfield Model could work, but it would come with pitfalls.

In England and Scotland at the very exclusive Clubs the process of picking the right visitor ia rather a dark and mysterious system.  Suffice to say that if you are an average Joe in the UK you have no chance of playing Muirfield and many others (especially the Clubs around London and the Southeast).

That being said, if Winged Foot were to open their doors even slightly, how would they handle the crush and make the decisions. How would that relate to our discrimination laws?

Big old can of worms.
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George Pazin

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #140 on: October 26, 2006, 02:27:11 PM »
Quote from: michael j fay on October 26, 2006, 02:15:07 PM
The Muirfield Model could work, but it would come with pitfalls.

In England and Scotland at the very exclusive Clubs the process of picking the right visitor ia rather a dark and mysterious system.  Suffice to say that if you are an average Joe in the UK you have no chance of playing Muirfield and many others (especially the Clubs around London and the Southeast).

That being said, if Winged Foot were to open their doors even slightly, how would they handle the crush and make the decisions. How would that relate to our discrimination laws?

Big old can of worms.

This is probably the clearest reason I've seen yet. Well thought out, Michael.

How many golfers are really heading abroad and how many are trying to access Muirfield? Can't imagine it's anywhere close to what any US Open course would receive in requests in any given month.
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #141 on: October 26, 2006, 02:46:25 PM »
I have never had anything piss me off on a golf course except other golfers...I can't believe you people think that unlimited hoards of unknown or tested peoples have no bearing on the enjoyment of a club.

I remember recently when a guy with his shirt untucked asked me where the first tee was located...I told him right next to the tuck your shirt in tree up on the hill.  I don't need the drama.
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Darren_Kilfara

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #142 on: October 26, 2006, 02:52:14 PM »
Quote from: michael j fay on October 26, 2006, 02:15:07 PM
That being said, if Winged Foot were to open their doors even slightly, how would they handle the crush and make the decisions. How would that relate to our discrimination laws?

Is "first-come, first-serve" discriminatory to anyone except habitual latecomers? :)
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michael j fay

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #143 on: October 26, 2006, 03:31:33 PM »
Sean:

A number of years ago my Dad, who was an avid golfer and avid traveler, went to London and surrounds with a group known as the Cenral Connecticut Golf Ass'n. The trip was arranged by a British fellow who had moved to the States. There  was another ex-Londoner in their group. While they were traveling on the bus my father asked what the Central Connecticut Golf Assn was. The guy who arranged the trip told him that without that type of cover he and the other ex-Londoner would be let on the courses. They said at that time that they lacked station in Club circles.

I would think by now that that has eased to some degree.

Exclusivity at clubs in America is desirable. Most, if not all, the major clubs in the US do not need the money or the hassle. This makes for finding sources and contacts to get entry to these clubs. There are a number of clubs where you don't even ask.

It is pretty silly. The idea of exclusivity is passe. If you are determined, can talk the talk and walk the walk you will gain access pretty much everywhere.

I think that most Clubs would gain financially by setting aside times for visitors. In Pinehurst, some of the private clubs do a brisk business with non-members. They are referred by travel arrangers. This has greatly helped some of the clubs.

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Marty Bonnar

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #144 on: October 26, 2006, 04:51:04 PM »
Quote from: michael j fay on October 26, 2006, 02:15:07 PM
Suffice to say that if you are an average Joe in the UK you have no chance of playing Muirfield...

Michael,
sorry, but in these more enlightened days of the new millennium, that statement is simply wrong.
The waiting list may be long and the opportunities rather limited (tuesdays and thursdays), but playing Muirfield is a very possible possibility for ANYONE (In other words, MUCH more possible than, say, playing MANY, MANY US Courses...)

FBD.
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Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Daryl David

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #145 on: October 26, 2006, 04:55:33 PM »
Martin, I agree.  In fact there is a several open tee times for next Tuesday if Michael wants to give it a go.  If I was on that side of the pond, I can't think of a better way to spend Halloween!
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Tom Huckaby

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #146 on: October 26, 2006, 05:55:40 PM »
I'd like to pin down the specifics of this also... I've mentioned it several times but I'm not sure myself...

 ;D

It many not have anything to do with tax.  I just do know there's some damn good reason they want to remain classified as private clubs....

TH
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David Stamm

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #147 on: October 26, 2006, 06:07:32 PM »
This is just a stab, but could it be for insurance/liability reasons?
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #148 on: October 26, 2006, 06:23:19 PM »
This is the last time I'm going to say it.    The top end club stateside doesn't need the visitor fee's.  Some of the best lawyers and most senior politicians are members so if they wanted to address any tax issue's there wouldn't be a problem. Fees are now so high that membership of such a club is a rich man's luxury:

something that is an indulgence rather than a necessity
lavishness: the quality possessed by something that is excessively expensive
wealth as evidenced by sumptuous living


It would loose some of it's fascination if everyone coud have a feel. ;)


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John_Cullum

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #149 on: October 26, 2006, 07:28:54 PM »
There are no "tax issues" for the club. The problem is when people try to deduct any portion of their monthly bill from a private club as a business expense. If members write anything off, the club must be non discriminatory in its membership policies, and clubs just love to discriminate, even in the most progressive locales.
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