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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fast play....
« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2004, 06:22:43 PM »
All the stuff Mike G. mentioned SOMETIMES impacts pace of play.  SOMETIMES you have to look for a ball. SOMETIMES someone gets on a good joke roll and you slow up to listen.  SOMETIMES people leave bags in the wrong place.  SOMETIMES people putt out everything and never give a thing.  SOMETIMES people run to get a beer, flirt with the cart girl, and then proceed to make a 12 and hole out instead of taking X.  SOMETIMES courses are set up hard, the rough is long, the pins are tough or whatever.

And yet, SOMETIMES seems to be all the time for most players. Everybody does something every now and then, sure, but most do all of this all the time. Preshot routine certainly adds as much as anything, but by and large, pace of play is a state of mind.

A gentle reminder from rangers on a course would go a long way toward improving everyone's experience. Unfortunately, in today's golf climate, there seems to be a fear that asking someone to keep up is tantamount to calling them the biggest lying scumbag racist sexist homophobic elitist piece of crap that ever walked the earth. I'd welcome a ranger's prod if he was applying it to everyone else as well. (Don't take that in any illicit manner.... :))

Have a good weekend everyone - I'm praying for no rain here in the Burgh.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike_Golden

Re:Fast play....
« Reply #101 on: August 27, 2004, 07:08:49 PM »
Shiv,

I'll save you from having to get up early tomorrow, here's a summary of one of my foursomes from Lake Merced in a microcosm of the global population of players:

MG-5-6 handicap, walks fast, preshot routine 20-25 seconds
AF-5 handicap, walks pretty fast (he's 71 years old, preshot routine 15 seconds (maximum)
BG-3-4 handicap, walks reasonably fast, preshot routine about the same as mine
JB, 5-6 handicap, walks average, preshot routine 35-40 seconds

AF and I could easily play 18 holes in about 3 hours. :)
BG and I could play 18 in just over 3 hours :D
AF, BG, and I could play 18 in 3 1/2 hours easily ;D
The four of us had a tough time playing in under 4 hours, 20 minutes-all because of JB-it just slows the entire group up significantly, more than you would think. ???


DMoriarty

Re:Fast play....
« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2004, 07:21:56 PM »
Shivas, I dont think anyone is discounting preshot routines as a major pace killer.  There is just more to it.   If you barred anything but a walk up and hit, many would still take 5 hours.  See my post at the bottom of last page.

JohnV

Re:Fast play....
« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2004, 09:07:37 PM »
Shivas, if anyone takes 40 seconds on a 6 inch tap in they deserve to be shot.  Take out 12 to 18 short puts per person per group from you calculations.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fast play....
« Reply #104 on: August 27, 2004, 09:24:29 PM »
DMoriarty writes:
My point?  We could all probably use a little critical self-evaluation when it comes to pace issues.

Amen, Brother Dave.

I used to think I was a fast golfer. Then I played with people like Mike Golden, BillV, JohnVB and Rich Goodale and realized I could be faster. I realized my walk had slowed down considerably. I was at one time a fast walker, but I slowed down my pace so I wouldn't spend so much time waiting at my golf ball. I've also gotten fatter and am working on improving there.

I also started carrying much fewer than 14 clubs. The number of clubs really slows down the pace of play. I play much faster because I don't need nearly as much yardage and much less time deciding do I hit a 5-iron or a 6-iron, etc...

I've also eliminated my pre-shot routine completely. I get up to the ball and hit it. No waggle, no practice swings, nothing, just hit the damn ball, go find it, hit it again.

I agree with Shivas that these pre-shot routines is one of the big reasons why 18 holes takes about twice as long as it did some 50-75 years ago.

One thing to note in the argument between fast and slow players. Slow players generally force the world to play at their pace since there is no way they ever let people play through. Fast golfers do not force slower golfers to change. If slower golfers would learn to step aside and let fast golfers through then both sets could live in the world together.

Dan King
Quote
Something very drastic ought to have been done years and years ago. Golf courses are becoming far to long. Twenty years ago we played three rounds of golf a day and considered we had taken an interminably long time if we took more than two hours to play a round. Today it's not infrequently takes over three hours.
 --Alister MacKenzie

ForkaB

Re:Fast play....
« Reply #105 on: August 28, 2004, 04:21:11 AM »
Our threesome played today in 3:30 only because the foursome of knuckleheads made us wait on every frickin' shot with two holes open ahead of them.  Methinks that their pace was probably acceptable, but blame the USGA for putting in the rule book that foursomes have right of way over three etc and so on and so on.  Bro' John, I never got that one.......

Hell, I had time to stretch 15 times and do exercises for my back 10.  



p.s. Tom Paul, it's not me with the website on slow play.   ;)  I am however passionate about it.

red

If the 4-ball in front of you also played in 3:30, that's pretty fast (even for a guy like me used to Scottish golf).  Maybe you need to stop and smell the flowers a bit more......

As for the USGA, you are giving your separated-at-birth twin too much grief.  To my knowledge, the Rules never said anything about letting people through except to do so if there was space ahead of you and you were being pressed.  There used to be a clause to the effect of "Single players have no standing on the course," but this was eliminated last year.

JohnV

Re:Fast play....
« Reply #106 on: August 28, 2004, 11:21:39 AM »
Our threesome played today in 3:30 only because the foursome of knuckleheads made us wait on every frickin' shot with two holes open ahead of them.  Methinks that their pace was probably acceptable, but blame the USGA for putting in the rule book that foursomes have right of way over three etc and so on and so on.  Bro' John, I never got that one.......

Hell, I had time to stretch 15 times and do exercises for my back 10.  



p.s. Tom Paul, it's not me with the website on slow play.   ;)  I am however passionate about it.

Bill, you need a new rule book.  That is no longer in there.  Pace of play section in Etiquette in 2004 now reads:

"It is a group's responsibility to keep up with the group in front.  If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group."

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fast play....
« Reply #107 on: August 28, 2004, 03:31:16 PM »
Shivas,

I don't know what sort of drugs you have started taking the last few days, but they seem to have some side effects making you stressed out and obsessed with this issue ;D

You can do math all you want but your arguments just don't hold water.  As John Vander Borght points out, long preshot routines don't occur on the short putts.  The post someone else made about "gimmes" for 18 inch putts saving so much time was laughable, because me and most people I know just walk up and slap those in, unless it is exactly 18 inches and a downhill sidehill putt on a green that stimps 11.  My dad and his friends play "inside the leather" gimmes but any time they save by doing that is lost when 4-5 times a round they have to lay the putter down on the green to verify it (and one guy's putter has a 1" longer in the leather zone so if its close they want to reverify with that one!)  Arguments over whether a putt is X inches is always going to be the downfall of any system designed to "save" time via gimmes.  It is just a crutch for people with the yips.

The people who take three practice swings, lots of waggles and all that annoying stuff rarely do so on short pitches or chips, either, so I don't think it is as simple as "you shoot 85, so it is 85 * 40 seconds"  Even players who take a lot of time before their first putt will rarely take as much time on the second.  Even someone who absolutely HAS to line up every putt from both sides will take much less time on a 4-5 foot second putt, simply because there is less walking involved than the 40 footer before it!

I still think more of the slowness of slow groups is due to lack of being ready when it is a player's turn than anything to do with excessive preshot routines.  You go watch the PGA players play in person sometime and bring a stopwatch and follow a few players for a few holes and I'll bet you Pebble Beach greens fees for two that you end up totalling more time in the "its his turn to hit but he hasn't yet started his preshot routine" stage than the actual "preshot routine to contact" stage.  Amateurs can be worse because of all the other ways there are to waste time when they should be playing.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Fast play....
« Reply #108 on: August 28, 2004, 03:46:43 PM »
My personal best is 1:25 walking a spread out, housing development course as the only one out there on Mother's Day, circa 1997.  

I could probably play better if I played slower, but I wouldn't enjoy it as much.  

What's a practice swing?  I find myself physically cringing if I see someone taking one on any shot but the first of the day.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fast play....
« Reply #109 on: August 28, 2004, 04:31:27 PM »
Shivas writes:
Good Lord, the more I talk about pre-shot routines as THE main cuprit, the more I get the sense that the pre-shot routine is some sacred third-rail of pace of play discussions -- you just aren't allowed to talk about them.

You've sold me. I believe you are right.

I have countless friends who only know one pace. That is because the golf mags have told them to develop a pre-shot routine and stick with it no matter what. If we fall behind because of one of these numerous other reasons they are clueless on how to pick up the pace because they have been conditioned not to change their pre-shot routine.

The beauty of having almost no pre-shot routine is that I can play at a variety of different paces. The other guys can pick up their walking speed, but then we get to our golf balls and the whole thing screeches to a halt while they grip, re-grip, line-up, waggle, re-line-up, re-grip, etc...

There faster walking pace has done almost nothing to close the gap between them and the group ahead because while they are doing their crazy-ass waggle nothing else can go on around them.

And I've seen plenty of people take their whole pre-shot routine on those 18 inch putts. Again, it is what they've been told to do and as lemmings, they are going to do it. The big concern is I'm seeing it more often than ever.

Dan King
Quote
If four players are ranged in line across a wide fairway there in no earthly reason why each of them should not be calculating the shot, selecting a club and taking up a stance more or less simultaneously. The setting up of a golf shot can be as ponderous as the loading of a Roman siege catapult, with interminable adjustments to range and aim before finally the carcass of a dead horse is hoisted into the middle launcher. Lobbing four dead horses over the parapet takes an age, which is how it works in golf if three crews of loaders and launchers sit down and watch while the fourth goes into action.
  --Peter Dobereiner

gholland

Re:Fast play....
« Reply #110 on: August 28, 2004, 07:09:19 PM »
I could not disagree more.  When it is your turn to play, you have a set time to play.  If you want to use your 45 seconds, looking at your bag then it is your right.  Being ready to play is the problem... not the waggles!

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fast play....
« Reply #111 on: August 29, 2004, 02:29:24 PM »
George Holland writes:
When it is your turn to play, you have a set time to play.  If you want to use your 45 seconds, looking at your bag then it is your right.

What do you mean your right? Is this some sort of inalienable right?

Sure, go ahead and take 45 seconds to make your shot. It's rude and obnoxious but hey, it is your right to be rude and obnoxious.

Being ready to play is the problem... not the waggles!

You can be ready to play and then not pull the trigger for 45 seconds? I'm confused how being ready is the key when people have to hang around and wait for you anyway, even though you were ready 45 seconds ago. It's a bizarre sort of theory, but as long as you feel you have a right to your bizarreness... Is that something like temporary insanity in a murder case? The murder victim is still dead but at least the murderer didn't have poor intentions.

Dan King
Quote
There is not the slightest doubt in my own mind that golf as played in the United States is the slowest in the world.
 --Henry Longhurst

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fast play....
« Reply #112 on: August 29, 2004, 02:59:27 PM »
Dan King,

You have it it on the head. Forget about the guy 70 yards across the fairway being two feet behind you; when you get to your ball hit it.

We play Wolf with fivesomes and call it ready golf. We catch up with two-balls at times.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fast play....
« Reply #113 on: August 29, 2004, 03:52:14 PM »
I'm old enough to remember going round TOC in the 70s and 80s with my brother-in-law in 1 hr 35 to 1 hr 55 regularly. We were there annually for a number of years around Easter.  There were almost no tourists in those days.  You didn't need to bother with the ballot at that time of year.  Green fees, as I remember, were about £15 a round - they never exceeded £20. My brother-in-law thought these excessive, having played there as an undergraduate for the equivalent of a Dunlop 65 per round plus the annual sub of £5 as a University member. You stepped off one green onto the next tee.  There was very little punitive rough.  Even if you made a hash of things you were not lost, merely marking down a 12!

Some years ago I visited all 83 courses then extant in Cheshire in pursuit of a book.  I went to each course at about 6.00 or 6.30 am and knew I could still be at work by 9.30 even though some of the courses were 45 miles distant.  One player on his own (I was then rather more able than now) can go round a course very quickly, yet they have no status - on these shores at least.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fast play....
« Reply #114 on: August 29, 2004, 04:59:42 PM »
George Holland --

I really think you need to reconsider. 45 seconds is an eternity -- and it is a totally arbitrary number that bears no relevance to proper pace on a busy golf course.

I played this morning in a mixed foursome. As we completed our front nine (in a leisurely 1:45), I noticed a guy practicing on the driving range. He looked like a pretty good player from his setup, and I like watching good swings, so I stopped to observe him. I waited for him to swing...and waited...and waited. I found myself saying out loud, "come on, hit the damn ball," to a guy on the driving range.

When I got to the 10th tee, which is parallel to our range, I decided to time the guy to see if his slow trigger was just a one-time thing, or a habit. I counted 20 seconds from the time he first set the club behind the ball until he hit his next practice shot -- and that doesn't count the 10 seconds or so it took him to sidle up to the ball and begin his launch sequence.

There's no way this guy could be hitting his ball any more quickly on the course than he does on the range, and if he's hitting his ball this slowly on the course, he's a disaster for everyone else. There's simply no excuse for taking that long to swing the club. Twenty to 30 seconds is excruciating; 45 seconds is an eternity.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Brent Hutto

Re:Fast play....
« Reply #115 on: August 30, 2004, 10:12:42 AM »
This Saturday I played nine in the morning and then attended a golf clinic during the middle part of the day. After lunch several of us went out for another nine and I was in a threesome with my teaching pro and one of his other students.

This poor guy had a swing lesson that morning and you could just see the gears grinding as he froze over the ball for an eternity. Somehow all the unprocessed stuff in his brain from the lesson combined with knowing the pro was watching was about to give him a stroke. It was torture to watch.

After the fourth hole the pro told him to just step up and hit the damned ball and quit trying to think about it. The next tee shot was a Par 3 and he just stepped up, gave it a whack and stuffed it in there about about five feet with an 8-iron. From then on he played quicker and he played bogey golf.

I find that playing with the pro watching speeds me up since I don't want to look like a hacker. I try to just hustle up there and let it rip pretending like I know what I'm doing. Of course I know from past experience that if I take too long this pro will give me "feedback" about it after the round.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fast play....
« Reply #116 on: August 30, 2004, 10:42:21 AM »
Quote:
"Doesn't every foresome playing a nice money game in under four hours have the right not to have balls landing and gay ass pirate eye stares being thrown at their backs while they try to save a whole hog sausage over a three foot putt to tie......I'd rather wait and play in 4:15 than play in 3:50 and let three twosomes go through.....rude no putt outing fast playing bastards.."  John Kavanaugh.

Mike Golden responds:
"This has got to be one of the most disingenuous quotes of all time considering Mr. Kavanaugh was one of the foursome at Barona who, after, going out first, proceeded to play in over 5 hours, held up the entire field, and never offered to let a single group through.  My guess is that the last time Mr. Kavanaugh played in under 4 hours was the last time he played only 9 holes."

I have no major quarrel on the issue of fast play with either gentlemen, assuming that I am understanding John's unique prose.  However, being in the foursome with John in the cited Barona outing, I am compelled to correct the record.

Mr. Kavanaugh was not scheduled to play in the group.  A certain other GCA celebrity was, but for some unknown reason, did not wish to play me.  The organizers scrambled to find another opponent, and JK agreed to be moved up.  We teed off well over 15 minutes late due to the confusion, and the fact that many of the event's participants were in no condition to tee off before noon, not to say anything about dawn.

We did play excruciatingly slow, but well under 5 hours.  John and I had a tight match all the way to the end, and I was as responsible as anyone for the pace of play.  BTW, John and I were two of the very few walkers that day.

We did not let any groups go through for one simple reason: with the exception of two or three times for a couple of minutes, we had no one pressing us.  In fact, behind the next group, there was often one or more holes completely open.  I hate holding people up, and have no qualms about letting faster players through.

BTW, it took over 6 hours to play the prior day's afternoon round; possibly an indication that the course itself may have a bit to do with the pace of play.

Most slow players do not realize that they are slow.  They should be politely helped.

Many fast players do not have the empathy and sympathy for people who were not weaned on a wedge and find golf to be a very difficult sport.  Perhaps not all golfers see a Track & Field influence in the game.

A large number of courses have pace of play objectives including the average acceptable time of a round.  At my home course, you are expected to play in under four hours, but I can comfortably get around in 3 hours with a fast group.  We have riding fivesomes playing $60/$40 wolf in under 3 hours, and dollar games which go on and on.

Since we all feel that ours is the correct pace and everyone else is either too slow or too fast, what are we to do about it?  On the freeway we weave in and out of traffic, blast the horn, and pop the finger.  In golf, this is just not polite, and besides, there is not enough metal and speed to avoid the repercussions of our rude behavior.

One possible solution is to be more tolerant of others and do the right things- speed up play to a "reasonable" level and/or allow faster players through.  Another, under the the golf is a big tent concept, is to play with people we are more compatible with and encourage the pro shop to set and enforce time guidelines which make sense for the course and clientele.  At private clubs, the management with the backing of the appropriate committees can institute tee time policies which in essence allow faster players to get out there and get finished before the slow pokes get to the course.

The ultimate is to join a club with 200 national members and have the place to yourself.  I've never tried it, but I suspect that with a cart, I could play 18 holes in an hour putting everything out and still shoot 100.  But is that what golf is all about?  

Must everything be done at top speed to reinforce our type A personalities?  I thought that golf was about "... going into God's out-of-doors, getting close to nature, fresh air, exercise, a sweeping away of the mental cobwebs, genuine recreation of tired tissues."   And ".... a cure for care- an antidote to worry.  It includes companionship with friends, social intercourse, opportunity for courtesy, kindliness and generosity to an opponent."

BTW, the KPI at Barona was a resounding success despite the slow play.  I too wish that we would have played faster, but unlike others on this site, my idea of enjoyable golf is not playing The Old Course in under two hours.  I suppose that we could modernize the game to reflect the times even more and erect a scoreboard on each hole complete with a shot clock.  But, for some reason, that just doesn't appeal to me.




     
 
 

THuckaby2

Re:Fast play....
« Reply #117 on: August 30, 2004, 10:53:31 AM »
And your conflict is a good one, shivas.  Tell me that wasn't a quality 5.5 hours or whatever it took for us to get those W's that fateful afternoon at Barona.

 ;)

But you make a good point - that has to be a very rare exception where a slow round was enjoyable.

So just be careful using it as an example, that's all!

TH

JohnV

Re:Fast play....
« Reply #118 on: August 30, 2004, 02:50:43 PM »
Shivas,  Post Shot Routines are annoying.  Not so much on the tee, but in the fairway if the group behind is waiting.  Similar to people who take a couple of practice putts after missing the 4 footer for double bogey while I'm standing there waiting to hit.  Thank goodness the tour bans that (except at the match play and the US Open).

Most of the time the pros know they'll be waiting when they get to the ball for the glacial group in front of them to move so they aren't worried about their Post shot routines.

I'm hoping to get the chance to do some more time studies at the US Mid-Am Qualifier and our Four-Ball championship over the next couple of weeks.  I wish I hadn't thrown out my papers from my days on the Futures Tour.

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