Matt & George--

I guess that I am going to have to remove all of my experiences with long par three bottlenecks from my memory, not only from playing but also from the Host Professional perspective.  

As far as drivable par fours and reachable par fives go, it is very rare that all four players have to wait to hit the lengthy approach shot usually involving a hazard.  Some players will lay up and in many cases will play before the "aggressive" player despite not being away.  

Oh well, back to the game.....

Garland, there's nothing dumbed down about the 8th, in spite of whatever you may have read. It's a very interesting par 3 1/2.

Nothing George? Look back at the Oakmont threads and see the report of Jack Snyder dumbing down the 8th green because of the difficulty of its length.

Garland,

While I respect Brad's opinions very much, it is obvious that #17 is a long par-3.

At 217, uphill, the hole plays at least 225 yards, plus a false front.  Given the constant strong winds at Chambers, there will most certainly be times when a wood is required on that hole.  Even in calm conditions, a hybrid will most likely be needed.  That hole is a long par-3, and theres no getting around it.

Steve:

Love the sarcasm.

There's more than "some" fault at management's door. Wake up my good man.

Management at most public facilities only talks the talk abo slow play. They are folks chiefly responsible for seeing to it that players are advised and stressed concerning the importance in maintaining the pace. In terms of overall weight -- management is 95% of the equation in my book.

The architecture of the course plays a minor role in my book. I've played courses with low slopes and low cr's and they creep and crawl no matter if the course was changed overnight and had bunkers and H20's all over the place. If management were as quick to observe playing conditions as they often are in taking the plastic from players when paying to play then matters might be different.

Management, at the sheer bulk of public / resort courses I have ever played, only pays lip service to getting players around. Those holes / situations which are inherently demanding at any particular course cane be monitored if management took the TIME & EFFORT to have staff on-hand to keep things moving. Few, if any, do that from my personal experiences.

The idea that long par-3's are the heart and soul tied to slow play is truly amusing.

Once you allow the inmates to run the asylum all hell breaks loose. Of course - what the hell do I know when compared to others. I stand before thee and bow.

Phil:

Read my point.

If management really UNDERSTANDS their own FACILITY they should have personnel on-hand to make sure that the daily situation you outlined doesn't happen over and over and over again.

When management takes a no involvement role you get the back-ups again and again.

Most slow play is caused by inertia of the staff. Many places don't have real effective rangers -- either they get old guys like Buddy Ebsen types who are busy looking for balls or keeping their eyes on the gal wearing the bikini at the pool next door to the course.

If management has been explained the issue at your course or anywhere else for that matter -- do they bother to get off their collective butts and do something about it?

Try the tortoise game approach in many places in the UK and Ireland and they will give a quick rebuke. Let me also point out that a place like Portrush / Dunluce is loaded with plenty of hay-like rough and narrow fairways and the pace of play still gets around in a brisk manner.

Phil, I don't doubt architecture / routing may have more than 5% of an issue. So sue me if my percentage is not a bit higher.

But it's being a bit much on your part to think that management at most USA places is really doing their utmost to deal with the slow pokes who do the same thing over and over again.

Management has the keys to any place -- they set the tone or fail to set the tone by their actions. The players are like cattle -- they can be rounded up and moved if management has the cowboys who will give those fat steers a good swift kick to get moving. For many management groups the idea is a simple one -- be fast to collect the Master / Visa Card at the pay window -- the rest is simply a talking point.

Adam:

I understand the tough aspect in handling customer service. If some guy comes to the pay window with 20-30 players it can be a tough thing to remind these guys that slow play will not be tolerated. No doubt plenty of owners / management groups take the position that if you piss the guy off he can take his group the next day and play at the competition and not be hassled.

But thing of the reverse message if nothing is done with slow play. The regulars -- the people who pay the freight and are your daily revenue source -- will slowly, but ever more so, leave and go elsewhere. I left Bethpage Black a number of years ago when it became apparent that management was sitting on their butts and allowing six hour golf to be the norm.

When you say it's tough to hire people -- I can understand that -- I used to be a ranger years and years ago at a public facility in my neck of the woods in NJ. The "connected" groups that were able to do whatever they pleased -- other non-connected groups (women and juniors) often got harrassed when playing in order to demonstrate that management really cared about slow play.

It's possible retired pros can be effective. Getting retired cops might be even better. But you need to have people who can show COURTESY AND SUSTAINED commitement.

As I said before -- most players are like cattle -- they will wander off and do their own thing unless you have some well-trained cowboys to bring the back on point.

Getting personnel situated at the predictable slow play check points is a real plus. It would not hurt management that slow groups are denied prime tee times for repeated offenses.

Garland:

Thanks for the photos.

Couple of missing items in your post.

The max length of the hole in 1937 is vastly different than what is there today in 2007 -- I believe in 1937 the hole at max played roughly 233 yards -- today's version can reach 300 yards if a rear pin placement is used. The added length today more than makes up for the loss of the bunker you referenced.

One other thing, if memory serves, the teeing areas have been slightly angled a bit further to the left so that hitting over a broader area of the mega bunker on the left is more likely needed.

On a related point -- I believe the mega bunker was also deepened a bit more from its original time - especially for the '07 Open. The back right bunker with the current version is also another demanding aspect for those overshooting the target on that side. Ditto the middle placement bunker to the green's right side.

Likely, no one on this board can speak directly to the nature of the hole in its earliest form.

Garland, you make it sound like the latest version of the par-3 8th is some form of a routine par hole. It's not. Of course, you would not know that -- you've never played it and can only speculate from inserting photos without some personal testimonial.  

...
Garland, you make it sound like the latest version of the par-3 8th is some form of a routine par hole. It's not. Of course, you would not know that -- you've never played it and can only speculate from inserting photos without some personal testimonial.  

At no time did I write anything that indicated it was "a routine par hole".

And, Oh, by the way, in 1938 they weren't using ProV1s, graphite shafts, and titanium drivers with faces having a spring-like effect. But since you weren't there, you wouldn't know that, now would you.

Phil:

Read my point.

If management really UNDERSTANDS their own FACILITY they should have personnel on-hand to make sure that the daily situation you outlined doesn't happen over and over and over again.

When management takes a no involvement role you get the back-ups again and again.

Most slow play is caused by inertia of the staff. Many places don't have real effective rangers -- either they get old guys like Buddy Ebsen types who are busy looking for balls or keeping their eyes on the gal wearing the bikini at the pool next door to the course.

If management has been explained the issue at your course or anywhere else for that matter -- do they bother to get off their collective butts and do something about it?

Try the tortoise game approach in many places in the UK and Ireland and they will give a quick rebuke. Let me also point out that a place like Portrush / Dunluce is loaded with plenty of hay-like rough and narrow fairways and the pace of play still gets around in a brisk manner.

Phil, I don't doubt architecture / routing may have more than 5% of an issue. So sue me if my percentage is not a bit higher.

But it's being a bit much on your part to think that management at most USA places is really doing their utmost to deal with the slow pokes who do the same thing over and over again.

Management has the keys to any place -- they set the tone or fail to set the tone by their actions. The players are like cattle -- they can be rounded up and moved if management has the cowboys who will give those fat steers a good swift kick to get moving. For many management groups the idea is a simple one -- be fast to collect the Master / Visa Card at the pay window -- the rest is simply a talking point.

Matt:

I never said management at most places in this country are doing the utmost to keep players on pace. I haven't been to most of this country's courses, so I wouldn't know.

I do know this: At one of Wisconsin's highest-profile and well-regarded (by rankings, articles, others) courses (URidge outside Madison), the design of the course has a lot to do with pace of play issues. Management doesn't hold up their end of the bargain, I'll grant you -- they usually have rangers at the beginnings of the bottleneck (the par 3 3rd hole) who do little to keep things moving. But I think you let course designers/architects off the hook with the broadside that design/routing have little if anything to do with pace of play issues.

You're right about golf in the UK -- of the few courses I've played there, none have the pace-of-play issues that I and others have experienced at URidge. None of them, however, had any of the goofy and ill-thought-out design/routing problems of URidge's front nine.

Phil:

 If management is now placing staff at a par-3 hole and nothing is done -- then the patrons should indicate that to management and get them moving with a more active response. If all else fails -- patrons can simply vote with their feet and pocket books and go elsewhere to play where these issues are dealt with more seriously.

Matt:

I've done the former, to no avail. So I've resorted to the latter. I was all set to return this fall, when friends said the pace of play had improved, until GCA poster Brad Swanson weighed in and said the opening pace at URidge was still intolerable. It's a disappointment, as there are parts of the course I really do enjoy, particularly sections of the back nine. I plan to make an effort to get out there this coming spring, but I'm not optimistic. The sad thing is that URidge probably won't fix it, because it's clearly the highest-profile course in the immediate area, and with its ties to Bucky, holds a certain cache with the golfing public around here.