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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2007, 07:00:36 PM »
Sean,

You mean the local council of 65 is not really a local branch of government?  Do you not think it is a bit scary to have a very small committee make decisions of substantial consequence without recourse?

I don't want to be argumentative, but in every system of delegated authority I've been aware off, the delegator always retains the authority to review decisions reached by the lower levels.  As I noted earlier, if the Aberdeenshire/ Scotland system is different, reversing the 65 member council decision to go forward with the application should be a slam dunk, unless, of course, politics and not the rule of law reign there (which I strongly doubt).  

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #101 on: December 14, 2007, 07:46:24 PM »
Sean,

You mean the local council of 65 is not really a local branch of government?  Do you not think it is a bit scary to have a very small committee make decisions of substantial consequence without recourse?

I don't want to be argumentative, but in every system of delegated authority I've been aware off, the delegator always retains the authority to review decisions reached by the lower levels.  As I noted earlier, if the Aberdeenshire/ Scotland system is different, reversing the 65 member council decision to go forward with the application should be a slam dunk, unless, of course, politics and not the rule of law reign there (which I strongly doubt).  

Lou

There is recourse.  Council members stand for election.  That is how democracy works.  Democracy is not about second guessing every decision based on knee jerk public/media opinion.  If this were the case, very little would get done.  

I am not exactly sure what you mean.  If a body that delegates power can reverse the decision of a committee then it really isn't a delegated system.  It sounds more like you are asking the committee to make a recommendation to the full council - this is a totally different function and one in which the committee wouldn't have the power to make decisions.  Groups like this are very common in councils, but this is not what we are talking about when it comes to the situation in Aberdeen.  

Either a body delegates decision making power or it doesn't - its a black or white situation.  You can't have a delegation system which can be overridden whenever the full council disagrees.  What is the point of a system like this?  It would mean that the full council is reviewing all cases.  As I have already said, council members do not have enough time in the day to properly consider all planning applications and they are in no way expected to.  

Consider what you are requesting.  It takes at least 15 minutes of looking at an application to get a reasonable understanding of what is being proposed.  If the proposal is at all controversial in terms of listed buildings, conservations areas, building materials, ethnic minority groups, previous conditions on the development of the land etc then a site visit is likely necessary.  Then there are the consultation periods with neighbours and in many cases local parish councils.  Then there is the matter of meeting (in public) to discuss the application which in and of itself would be terribly cumbersome with a 65 (or 45 or 25) member council.  Assuming this goes to plan then a decision can be made at the meeting.  Often times, things are so smooth.  Applications an be called in or appeals can be made.  I hope you are beginning to see the reality of the situation and can understand why the delegated system works and is necessary.  We are not just talking about the odd application.  A council the size of Aberdeenshire may get hundreds, perhaps thousands of applications each year.  

Ciao

 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #102 on: December 14, 2007, 07:56:29 PM »
Sean/Lou,
lighten up!
The simple truth of the matter ALWAYS would be that the application would be called in.
NATIONAL numpties always have precedence over LOCAL numpties.
To ask a bunch of unqualified eedjits like local cooncilors to decide on a billion dollar project is akin to asking me on my opinion on sub-atomic physics. A bit of a larf, but ultimately fruitless.
These people are normally engaged in deciding e.g. how many and what shape/colour windows a new facade on a high street should have or whether a householder should be allowed to build an inside toilet or, more likely in Aberdeen, a sub-Gothic pigeon loft.
BIG stuff is ALWAYS called-in anyways. Discussion on the topic was always bound to be premature.

best,
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #103 on: December 14, 2007, 09:27:11 PM »
Thanks, Martin.  This stuff is fascinating.  And really, I don't care if Trump gets his deal.  I am interested in property issues for more than passing curiousity.  I need to get my continental sensibilities in calibration for a trip to northern Spain I am planning for next June.  My recollection of past work with a couple of ayuntamientos is that I will need to check my Yankee mentality at the border.

Sean,

I know that the 65 councillors are a busy bunch for which they receive such paltry compensation.  But really, do they get more than one or two billion pound applications in a lifetime?  Try to be honest.  Aren't you just huffing because you so dislike the project and what Trump represents?

If I was Trump, my first reaction might be to tell Aberdeenshire to stick it in their ear.  Obviously, he is a better man in addition to being much, much richer and smarter.  
 


Rich Goodale

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #105 on: December 15, 2007, 02:42:25 AM »
Sean

Your attempts to undestand Scottish planning law from the perspective of your experience in Royston Vesey are doomed to failure.  Next to my house is a small lot which allows me a view out towards Bass Rock and North Berwick if I crane my neck and the sun is shining.  This lot is vacant because when my development was built 10-15 years ago, two old ladies complained, after the planning application had been approved by the Fife Copuncil, that this lot constitued an historic "beauty spot" where local people would come to admire the views over the Forth.  This issue was eventually resolved by the Scottish Executive (Scottish Office in those days) in favour of the two old dears.  The developer was required to build a small concrete slab at the high point of the lot and a gate and stairs from the street.  He cuts the grass every couple of weeks in the summer.

In the 5 years I have lived here I have never seen anybody standing on the slab admiring the view, partly because there really isn't any unless you bring a ladder, due to the pre-existing housing that stands between the lot and the Forth.

Go figure.... :)

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #106 on: December 15, 2007, 11:06:21 AM »
Why wouldn't Trump buy the Turnberry Resort for less than 10% of the bandied figure for Aberdeen? He would get what he really wants, an OPEN on his course!!, a great resort, 300 extra acres of land, better weather (sort of), a second golf course, a lighthouse, etc.  

Imagine a little waterfall in front of the hotel!
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #107 on: December 15, 2007, 11:48:11 AM »
Because as it keeps getting pointed out , its nothing to do with golf , its about building and selling houses .

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #108 on: December 17, 2007, 08:33:44 PM »
The Trump saga and its impact on Scottish politics continues to unfold with another interesting article in today's (December 17) Press & Journal. This affair has all the makings of either a case study for the Harvard Business School or a comic opera.

www.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #109 on: January 10, 2008, 01:27:03 PM »
Whats the latest on this Project?

Trump 'promised' his final word if he was going to Aberdeen or Antrim by the 3rd of this month.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2008, 01:57:46 PM »
Matthew Hunt -

There was an article on January 5 in the Press & Journal (the Aberdeen newspaper) saying that Trump had gotten a 6-month extension on the property in Antrim, Northern Ireland, so it looks like the timeframe for making a decision has been extended. No big surprise there.

If you want to read the article, go to:

www.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk

Do a search from Trump on the home page. The article appeared January 5.

Michael Powers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #111 on: January 10, 2008, 10:22:29 PM »
Will they invite Amarossa to participate in Trump's Celebrity Golf Apprentice?
HP

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