Golf in the Kingdom-A different View

« **Reply #100 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:00:10 PM »

Tom,

Thank you for a great story. I love it when I get to church and expect my parish priest to add some insight to some "significant current event", and then instead he delves into some centuries old principal that is of true significance. It is good when someone can show me that what is really significant.

Shivas,

Thank you for sharing why this book works for you. That is all that matters with a book. Can it work for the reader, by offering entertainment, insight, or some nourishment for the soul or mind? And for you, and for me, this book works. And for those who the book does not work, no matter. There are plenty of other books available.

One of the lessons I took from How to Read a Book (an incredible classic by Mortimer Adler and Charles Van Doren), is that the reader needs both the "light" books and the "meatier, heavy" books. Also, that through reading, one learns to be a better reader. Through these lessons, I have stopped viewing some books as “simple”. There are certainly many books I prefer to avoid, and that seem to not offer me anything, but I can not therefore judge the reader who likes that book. That reader may get something from that book that I could not get, or that book may just not work for me.

The lesson, I will pass to my children is to not allow themselves to stop learning to be better readers and to not stop growing as a reader. And it does require harder some reading, to grow as a reader.

So for some of us Golf in the Kingdom really connects with something missing from our approach to golf. For others it offers nothing.

« **Reply #101 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:01:59 PM »

I have read the beginning several times but never really gotten into it. The premise is neat, I guess but it just doesn't pull me in. I guess that I need to read the entire book.

« **Reply #102 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:03:19 PM »

Murphy has a tin ear for the Scots brogue which is something that has always annoyed me about GITK. Having said that, it is a messy haystack of a book that has some great insights within that I re-visit continually, kind of as a reference book. It is actually on my nightstand all the time, along with Hogan's "Five Lessons". GITK for inspiration, "Five Lessons" for instruction.

« **Reply #103 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:53:11 PM »

Quote from: Brent Hutto on October 24, 2007, 12:05:37 PM

I never read it but I did download an audiobook version of it to my iPod and listen to it while driving back and forth to one of the Dixie Cup events. To my recollection it started out intriguing but a little to cutesy for my taste, got a bit better for a while in the middle and then just devolved into claptrap toward the end.

At whatever point there was a section about going to dinner at someone's house one evening and sitting around afterwards comparing metaphysical whatsits...right at the beginning of that scene was my last hope of anything remotely enlightening. The book is a relic of the 70's and kind of like some of those old, washed-out movies from that period it must have seemed like there was more to it at the time than was really there. What a depressing decade.

Your comment is startling. I got about halfway through the book, hopeful up to this dinner scene and it just dissolved for me at that point. Never wanted to pick it back up. I thought I was just missing something when I still see many refer to it as the best fictional golf book they have ever read.

« **Reply #104 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:20:36 AM »

This thread proves that, either I was wrong about GITK or you guys have been improving your lie for a long time.

« **Reply #105 on:** October 25, 2007, 10:23:35 AM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on October 24, 2007, 10:04:21 PM

Quote from: R.Boult on October 24, 2007, 09:57:40 PM
Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on October 24, 2007, 09:33:07 PM
I have highlighted every important principle, concept and quotation in the book. They are the reason I don't play for score anymore.

I think it's important to differentiate, "not playing for score" and "not keeping score".

BTW, Steve Cohen, the founder of the SIS, told me at Bandon that the course in the novel is the "Old Course".

Was that even in question?

Apparently not. I just added this remark since there was a discussion a while back about an SIS Journal article by Tudhope? which recommended just "playing" and "not keeping score"... just making it clear that you weren't suggesting this.

« **Reply #106 on:** October 25, 2007, 12:56:05 PM »

Actually I think Neil Regan might be Shivas Irons! Never seen a guy putt off the fairway like Neal!

« **Reply #107 on:** October 25, 2007, 01:14:52 PM »

Shivas: ah, you meant the course of course

and I admire your attitude about scoring!!

« **Reply #108 on:** October 25, 2007, 01:54:24 PM »

My friend shivas and I have discussed this issue many times. His "NATO" approach (Not Attached To Outcome) is a healthy one indeed. I too try to play this way, and have achieved a lot of fun and joy in this manner. It is sane, for sure.

But as I've told shivas, it leaves out one very fun part of the game: the satisfaction one gets when one plays competitively and succeeds (or fails, but gives it a good try). To me, NATO golf is very fun for sure, but I can't live too long without testing myself in this manner. His answer is he plays plenty of betting games that achieve this same result; and maybe he's right. But he also knows that playing for calligraphy (that is, with your score posted up there on the board for all the world to see) is a very different type of golf with very different pressures... and satisfactions if such are overcome.

This is all yet another reason this game is so great - there are so many different ways to play it.

I just would hesitate to say that one way fits all. I don't think anyone is saying that here.

TH

« **Reply #109 on:** October 25, 2007, 02:03:56 PM »

shivas: heck yeah you invented it - apologies for lack of attribution there.

And I know, I know, you've done way more than your share, without a doubt. You also have way higher standards than most that you used to play to. So your way works well for you.

But for those of us without such high standards, well... like I say, there are many ways to play this game.

TH

« **Reply #110 on:** October 25, 2007, 02:11:24 PM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on October 25, 2007, 01:59:09 PM

The slippery slope to 200 yard drives and a 23 handicap. The day I play in a B flight, let alone a D or whatever is the day the sticks get donated to Make A Wish...

Shivas me boy,

Don't bet on it.

Bob

« **Reply #111 on:** October 25, 2007, 02:14:14 PM »

Shivas is turning all gushy-gooey on us. Don't keep score, just have fun, everyone is equal, we don't have to compare ourselves to anyone else..

Sounds like the mush my kids get day in and day out at school. Competition is bad, we're all winners, everyone is smart, blah, blah, blah

« **Reply #112 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:40:18 PM »

Kalen, not keeping score or being attached to your score has nothing to do with the "competition is bad, we're all winners, everyone is smart" mush you're accurately describing our kids being exposed to! Competition is invaluable in teaching us about our weaknesses and where we need to work to improve. However, making your satisfaction dependent on winning isn't necessarily healthy.

As a mushy and wacky SIS member, I love competition. I'm a member of 3 men's clubs and finished 3rd or better in all 3 leagues this year. I think my detachment about the outcome (NATO) is what makes me such a successful competitor

.

« **Reply #113 on:** October 25, 2007, 09:01:47 PM »

You know, gents, most of the talk on this thread seems to me to be in code (part flippancy, part rhetoric). What not many want to say is that, for all its flaws, the book does a good job of challenging the reader to ask two basic questions: is there a spiritiual dimension to the universe, and is golf unique in its potential to serve as a channel for and conduit to that dimension? Embarrassing questions to discuss on a discussion board, I know; and the book is indeed far from perfect (with the sequel being to me unreadable). But like many of you, I've played other sports competitively in the past, and there's none but golf that has ever had me even considering those questions. Isn't that one of the reasons the game can mean so much?

Peter

« **Reply #114 on:** October 25, 2007, 09:02:15 PM »

There is a little of the mystic in me. I once spent two months in a cistercian monastery and could have stayed.
One of the better books on the mystical and sport is Running and Being by George Sheehan. As much as I enjoyed it, Golf in the Kingdom pales in comparison.

Nonetheless, there is a mystical side to sport. I shot 69 the other day in an outing. It was the lowest round in years. I barely remember swinging the club or hitting the ball. It was as if I were in a different place or state of being. It was magical, not because of the score but because of the interior pleasure and peace I experienced.

Sport is more than running, hitting a ball, fielding a grounder, or making a hook shot. It is more than the outcome. It is also what that goes on inside when doing it.

« **Reply #115 on:** October 25, 2007, 09:16:23 PM »

I attended a function with some SIS guys who were visiting Atlanta several years back, and did not find them to be wackos at all. In fact I found them to be uncommonly down to earth and good company. Most were very successful professionals, including quite a few in the finance industry. By and large golf seemed to be an outlet for a sense of romanticism their worked denied them. A group of us played East Lake in a rare Atlanta snow and everyone had a great time.

« **Reply #116 on:** October 25, 2007, 09:51:09 PM »

A couple of years ago I was led to the to the back of a cavern in a cenote in the Yucatan region of Mexico....I was with a group of four others and when they wanted to go back, I said go ahead as I wanted to experience total blackness and lack of sound for a while on my own...I had a small flashlight and knew I would be able to get out easily.
After a while the after flashes from the receding lights diminished, and for a period I experienced a tomb like state, totally devoid of senses. After probably a few hours....which could of only been 45 minutes....I really had no idea....I perceived a dimly lit passage appearing in front of me. I decided to grope along and follow it to its end...which I did and pushed through a what seemed to be a round door.
Upon doing so I was bathed in sunshine....and surrounded by bright red cliffs, unlike any I was familiar with.

To make a long story shorter, I found a road and eventually someone picked me up and upon asking , I was told I was outside Sedona, Arizona.....imagine my surprise!

Fortunately I had my credit cards and was able to get a flight back to Georgia.

I haven't been in a cave since....no way

I'm not sure this post fits this thread, but I thought I would post it anyway.

chow!

« **Reply #117 on:** October 25, 2007, 09:54:51 PM »

Quote from: Peter Pallotta on October 25, 2007, 09:01:47 PM

What not many want to say is that, for all its flaws, the book does a good job of challenging the reader to ask two basic questions: is there a spiritiual dimension to the universe, and is golf unique in its potential to serve as a channel for and conduit to that dimension? Embarrassing questions to discuss on a discussion board, I know.

I'm not embarrassed to say that if there is a spiritual dimension to the universe, hitting and chasing a ball it is not its unique conduit.

« **Reply #118 on:** October 25, 2007, 10:05:11 PM »

Michael - you must know I meant unique in the terms of the sports we play. If there is a spiritual dimension, I'm sure that even this discussion board would be a potential conduit.

Peter

« **Reply #119 on:** October 29, 2007, 05:35:22 PM »

Quote

BTW, Steve Cohen, the founder of the SIS, told me at Bandon that the course in the novel is the "Old Course".

Quote

If that is the case, how do we explain Lucifer's Rug and the lair of Seamus? There are no features at The Old Course that bear any resemblance to these.

« **Reply #120 on:** October 29, 2007, 05:52:08 PM »

"If that is the case, how do we explain Lucifer's Rug and the lair of Seamus? There are no features at The Old Course that bear any resemblance to these."

Literary license?

« **Reply #121 on:** October 29, 2007, 07:12:51 PM »

Quote from: Peter Pallotta on October 25, 2007, 09:01:47 PM

You know, gents, most of the talk on this thread seems to me to be in code (part flippancy, part rhetoric). What not many want to say is that, for all its flaws, the book does a good job of challenging the reader to ask two basic questions: is there a spiritiual dimension to the universe, and is golf unique in its potential to serve as a channel for and conduit to that dimension? Embarrassing questions to discuss on a discussion board, I know; and the book is indeed far from perfect (with the sequel being to me unreadable). But like many of you, I've played other sports competitively in the past, and there's none but golf that has ever had me even considering those questions. Isn't that one of the reasons the game can mean so much?

Peter

Peter,

That's extremely insightful and to-the-point and I have nothing further of value to add, unfortunately.

« **Reply #122 on:** October 29, 2007, 07:20:31 PM »

....and I would like to second Mikes post about Peters post.

Golf for me includes many aspects of spirituality, both personal and with nature.....its much more than a game or sport.

« **Reply #123 on:** October 29, 2007, 07:36:24 PM »

Here's a different view- Golf In The Kingdom is factual and we are spirits with bodies. I am always looking for the local guy that will take me to dinner at somebody's house and then we get a little drunk or whatever and go check out the playground after everyone is gone. Things get interesting about then; moonlight hikes up ski slopes and skiing the moguls in monochrome, golf in the dark and never losing a ball, skinny dipping with a girl way out of my league...gotta take some chances now and then. Oh yea, one more; when we die we go on living.

« **Reply #124 on:** October 29, 2007, 10:45:43 PM »

Quote from: paul cowley on October 25, 2007, 09:51:09 PM

A couple of years ago I was led to the to the back of a cavern in a cenote in the Yucatan region of Mexico....I was with a group of four others and when they wanted to go back, I said go ahead as I wanted to experience total blackness and lack of sound for a while on my own...I had a small flashlight and knew I would be able to get out easily.
After a while the after flashes from the receding lights diminished, and for a period I experienced a tomb like state, totally devoid of senses. After probably a few hours....which could of only been 45 minutes....I really had no idea....I perceived a dimly lit passage appearing in front of me. I decided to grope along and follow it to its end...which I did and pushed through a what seemed to be a round door.
Upon doing so I was bathed in sunshine....and surrounded by bright red cliffs, unlike any I was familiar with.

To make a long story shorter, I found a road and eventually someone picked me up and upon asking , I was told I was outside Sedona, Arizona.....imagine my surprise!

Fortunately I had my credit cards and was able to get a flight back to Georgia.

I haven't been in a cave since....no way

I'm not sure this post fits this thread, but I thought I would post it anyway.

chow!

Paul,

Some forty odd years ago after a particularly bad call in the commodities market in South Africa, I found myself mining copper in Northern Rhodesia, hard by the Belgian Congo border.

Like you, I was at one time trapped underground by a flash flood off the shaft face. At no time did I think of some spiritual topic like Shivas and being the ball or whatever, but was absolutely scared shitless, thinking, what next. Obviously things worked out, but it never ceases to amaze me that people think that there is something uplifting in inviting disaster by putting ones life at risk.

I know that climbing Everest and trekking through hostile terrain is condidered the ne plus ultra of the adventuresome man, personally these days ,I'll sit at home and have a gin and tonic and let my liver deliver the answer.

Bob

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