[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

When you get the dress code thing sorted out, let me know!

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom — You do not understand. Paul likes to wear kilts...seriously. While the rest of us are in Ross tartan above the waist, Paul is in Ross tartan below the wasit.

[TEPaul]

I'm not going near this thread except to say I support everything Paul Cowley has said or ever plans to say on the subject, and I hereby encourage any members of the ASGCA on this website to nominate him for the presidency of the ASGCA for the foreseeable future which lasts until the 12th of Never.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul would make a fine President, and I am sure his fine work on the attire committee will elevate him to that position within a few short years.  If nothing else,  President Richardson will, in his second action, nominate him for succession.

His first action will be to allow me to retain my membership, as long as I promise to never attend a meeting he does!

Seriously, it can be a thankless job, but both Forrest, Paul and Ian should all someday serve the group in an executive capacity.  Ian and Paul have been around fewer years, but they will get there.  Forrest has already done a lot for ASGCA, and usually, when that happens, we wait until that member has to use the restroom, and elect him while he's out of the room.

[Forrest Richardson]

Having just been poured my second glass of wine — I am in Mexico at the moment — I could care less what you boys are up to. I am glad, however, that Pat Mucci has sent Tony an e-mail...you know, one of the usual 7 page e-mails with loads of questions.

[Tim Copeland]

LOL

I love it when you pocket protector boys fight.

This is almost as good as when you don't know where to paint lines for a bunker and drive up costs by doing it 4 times.

Priceless

Tim....I can assure you I don't have any issues with Jeff, but I could pick a fight with you for your presumption that I do things more than once or that my projects have cost overruns.

Ignorant statements like yours just show me you don't have a clue about where I come from, what I do, or how I do it.

I wasnt talking to you directly...but if the paint can fits..............

[Tony Ristola]

QUOTE
Tony, as near as I can tell, the industry problems you see come in two main areas - 1) A gca can't get into ASGCA if you have said/written certain things and 2) investors can't get all information they need without another gca pointing out the flaws of his competitors.
END
(3) There is a line in the sand for those on the outside and they don't know where it is. I am sure it has had an effect on what people have said publicly. Not good. Who knows what we have lost?

Further, this is a great difference from the days of Hunter, Mackenzie & Co.

QUOTE
As to investor knowledge, can you even acknowledge that if I said "Tony Ristola is a whack job" in an interview, that it might hurt you, but it would more likely hurt my image AND more importantly, simply be taken as one bit of info in making the decision?  More than that, it would not be taken too seriously because it is coming from a competitor with something to gain by slamming you.
END
I agree. That's the power of free speech to identify and inform. Curtailing it in any form, and "avoid self laudatory advertisement/publicity" is not the same as thou shall not speak untruths. Far from it. That goes without saying. As does putting into question someone's parenting as a defense mechanism. I would say that's pretty classless.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tony — You need a lot of things. One is to lighten up and enjoy life. If God, Mother Nature or Alan Robertson had wanted you to be a salmon, he would have let you know and not given you design skills.

[Tony Ristola]

Forrest,

You know, I am a pretty light hearted guy and I do enjoy life... usually, and I'd say anyone who knows me would put that moniker by my name, right beside one of my favorite sayings..."Relax". But when debate turns to character assassination, and shots are made at parents...it's difficult to be light hearted.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tony — It does all begin with good parenting. It is interesting that you took the comment negatively. My wife has not changed her mind, you're still wrong about your displeasure with ASGCA. Fortunately you will likely never be faced with having to hire one of us, so it all works out in the end. (By the way, I recently read the origin of the phrase, "It all works out in the end", and it is exactly as one suspects.)

[Jeff_Brauer]

Forrest,

You know, I am a pretty light hearted guy and I do enjoy life... usually, and I'd say anyone who knows me would put that moniker by my name, right beside one of my favorite sayings..."Relax". But when debate turns to character assassination, and shots are made at parents...it's difficult to be light hearted.

Yeah, Tony, that's the first thing I picked up on in your posts.

At least we agree that none of us is defending the right to speak untruthfully, which is IMHO, ALL the ASGCA code of ethics drives at.  Is the "self laudatory" ban in the ESGCA rules, because it isn't in ASGCA?

BTW, Forrest gets absolutely goofy - and an advocate of saying whatever he damn well pleases - after that second glass of vino.  I expect that when he becomes prez of ASGCA, he will keep the rules, but add the two wine exception for the duration of his term.

BTW II, when I was President, I often used free speech a little too freely.....the home office started most press releases about me with the phrase, "What Mr. Brauer meant by those comments was.......(fill in the blank)"  In fact, I think Hootie learned his PR skills for the Martha Burke fiasco from yours truly.

BTWIII, if my tone has changed, I have both had a few beers to wind down Sunday night, and done some spray painting in an enclosed garage.....and breathed the fumes.  I plead the fifth for anything written tonight......

[paul cowley]

LOL

I love it when you pocket protector boys fight.

This is almost as good as when you don't know where to paint lines for a bunker and drive up costs by doing it 4 times.

Priceless

Tim....I can assure you I don't have any issues with Jeff, but I could pick a fight with you for your presumption that I do things more than once or that my projects have cost overruns.

Ignorant statements like yours just show me you don't have a clue about where I come from, what I do, or how I do it.

I wasnt talking to you directly...but if the paint can fits..............

Well, just who were you talking to Tim?

Let me give you some advice so you don't look so clueless....real words have meaning.....would you care to clarify what you are talking about?

Nothing overly personal here Tim....I just resent taking the time responding to smart ass insinuations from strangers.

I'm guessing you would feel the same way.

[paul cowley]

Jeff Brauer stated;

"Paul would make a fine President, and I am sure his fine work on the attire committee will elevate him to that position within a few short years.  If nothing else,  President Richardson will, in his second action, nominate him for succession."

Guys....I really don't have a problem with the tartan color....I think its divine.
Its just that the jacket is...well,...kind of monomist....and I think the addition of two little ensembles might liven things up a bit....such as;

the Great Kilt....[think Braveheart...Jeff, this style just says you!].

or...the more modern Mini Kilt [this little number has Forrest written all over it].


Either of these outfits accessorize well with weapons....its really hard to overdo the Look.

....and boys....just a little advice to avoid wardrobe malfunction..........when out in the Big City, always try to avoid subway grates!  

[Tim Copeland]

LOL

I love it when you pocket protector boys fight.

This is almost as good as when you don't know where to paint lines for a bunker and drive up costs by doing it 4 times.

Priceless

Tim....I can assure you I don't have any issues with Jeff, but I could pick a fight with you for your presumption that I do things more than once or that my projects have cost overruns.

Ignorant statements like yours just show me you don't have a clue about where I come from, what I do, or how I do it.

I wasnt talking to you directly...but if the paint can fits..............

Well, just who were you talking to Tim?

Let me give you some advice so you don't look so clueless....real words have meaning.....would you care to clarify what you are talking about?

Nothing overly personal here Tim....I just resent taking the time responding to smart ass insinuations from strangers.

I'm guessing you would feel the same way.

I was responding to everyone in the thread that had chimed in on the benefits of an architects organization......excuse me for being a stranger......I didnt realize you knew the other guys here personally.  I thought this was an open forum.

I will let you boys get back to deciding what jacket and kilt you will wear to the next rubber chicken dinner to blow sunshine up each others kilts.

Thanks for proving my point

[Jeff_Brauer]

LOL

I love it when you pocket protector boys fight.

This is almost as good as when you don't know where to paint lines for a bunker and drive up costs by doing it 4 times.

Priceless

Tim....I can assure you I don't have any issues with Jeff, but I could pick a fight with you for your presumption that I do things more than once or that my projects have cost overruns.

Ignorant statements like yours just show me you don't have a clue about where I come from, what I do, or how I do it.

I wasnt talking to you directly...but if the paint can fits..............

Well, just who were you talking to Tim?

Let me give you some advice so you don't look so clueless....real words have meaning.....would you care to clarify what you are talking about?

Nothing overly personal here Tim....I just resent taking the time responding to smart ass insinuations from strangers.

I'm guessing you would feel the same way.

I was responding to everyone in the thread that had chimed in on the benefits of an architects organization......excuse me for being a stranger......I didnt realize you knew the other guys here personally.  I thought this was an open forum.

I will let you boys get back to deciding what jacket and kilt you will wear to the next rubber chicken dinner to blow sunshine up each others kilts.

Thanks for proving my point

Tim,

Of course Paul, Forrest, Ian and I have met at the "rubber chicken" banquets.  Actually, ASGCA goes first class all the way and the food is usually quite good.  We don't figure saving a few bucks is worth it.  We know most of the other gca's here and elsewhere by name, reputation, or traded emails, etc. But, this is an open forum, so chime in.

While I took no offense at your original post, its only because I was confused by it.  GCA's aren't usually thought of as "pocket protector" Geeks.  And I still don't know exactly what point Paul just proved, so if you have a minute, please expound on your construction experience (with an emphasis on us gca's who keep designing to the end to get the best possible product for the owner)

I know it happens, if not to Paul or I, but to some.  Timeliness in field visits is always an issue, and of course we can't be there every single day, I know.  LIke Tony's original contributions here, I wonder where that tinge of bitterness comes from.   Hey, if you make a living in golf construction, how bitter can you be at a few flaky gca's?

Cheers.

[paul cowley]

Tim....you are the stranger I was referring to, because as far as I know we have never met or worked together.....and because of that, I took offense to your implied criticism of the way I might run a job or your suggestion that they suffer from cost overruns.......its probably no different than how you would feel if I criticised your work without having seen it.

This little sidebar exchange helps point out the ethical debate about disparaging others in the Biz that has been a main part of this threads content.

 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yeah, and all these sidebars, its clear that the main theme is still, "Who cares about the students?"

A guy like Paul, once he has his Tartan Kilt, what else does he care about?  All ASGCA cares about is that he don't go commando under that thing.

BTW, Paul, I think I am going to get the material for a Tartan pocket protector!

[paul cowley]

Jeff....I would be happy to make you one ....just measure the size of the pocket you want to protect and zip them off to me!

Oh, and BTW....going commando has already crashed the parties.

Real men [and Britney it seems], don't consider that extra garment as a needed accessory.

[Tony Ristola]

ASGCA guys,

It does not matter what the impetus is for asking a question. It’s irrelevant. As someone writing about Scientific Methodology (SM-14) has pointed out (paraphrasing) it does not matter where the motivation comes from that has someone asking questions; they are as numerous as the stars.

For discussion sake, let’s assume I am bitter, angry, have hate (I’m not any of those simply a defender of free speech and love this great game…) and all the other character assassinations you used to try and deflect the question; what does it matter?

This thread evolved into a question of why does the ASGCA and EIGCA have restrictions on free speech; in print?

There are the old adages:

…the power of the printed word…and…
If someone went through the process of writing it down (and having it published) it must mean something to the individual (group)

The following printed word comes from:

EIGCA
Can be found on their website.

4.1   A member of the Institute undertakes to avoid self laudatory advertising or publicity.


AMERICAN SOCIETY OF GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTS
March 2000

GUIDELINES FOR PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT

2.   A golf course architect shall not indulge in self laudatory… publicity.

What’s missing from the dots? In the case of the ASGCA they have cleverly lumped self-laudatory advertisement with “misleading, exaggerated and false”.  I don’t think it is a stretch for anyone reading this to assume “self laudatory publicity” is on par with lies, exaggeration and falsification… and should be steered very wide of.

In its entirety:

2.   A golf course architect shall not indulge in self laudatory, exaggerated, misleading or false publicity.

Tell me, if you were someone thinking about joining the ASGCA in the number of years it takes to create a portfolio and qualify, would these words or could these words have influence in the manner of advertising you produced? If these codes are not a shot at censorship, what do they represent?

So:
What is “self laudatory”?
Who decides what “self-laudatory” is?
What impression does it leave on up-and-comers in the industry?
Is it and can this rule be applied equally?
Is it providing the maximum good for the game, architects and investors?
How do investors benefit from restricted speech?

I have combed the AIA and NPSE Codes and have found nothing remotely similar to ASGCA & EIGCA restrictions on “self laudatory advertisement-publicity.”
I will be interested in the ASGCA Membership’s interpretation of the following code, as there are certainly some points I circled to see what one of your may say in defense.

AIA: http://www.aia.org/SiteObjects/files/codeofethics.pdf
NPSE: http://www.ethiek.tudelft.nl/ethiek/wijzigen/menu_items/links/beroepscodes/npse.htm


A little I found on the internet surfing about free speech:

…the First Amendment is most important for its role in protecting speech that others find offensive or dangerous. Popular and pleasant speech rarely needs special protection, because it is almost never the target of censors. In every major case in which offensive speech codes have been challenged, courts have struck them down.

…and regarding the military

However, military personnel do not leave their free speech rights at the
military gate: Implicit in the term "national defense" is the notion of defending those values and ideals which set this nation apart. For almost
two centuries, our country has taken singular pride in the democratic ideals enshrined in the Constitution, and the most cherished of those ideals have found expression in the First Amendment. It would indeed be ironic if, in the name of national defense, we would sanction the subversion of one of those liberties ... which makes the defense of the Nation worthwhile.
United States v. Robel, 389 U.S. 258, 264 (1967)

As the Supreme Court noted in Brown v. Glines, the Air Force regulations themselves "prevent commanders from halting distribution of materials that merely criticize the Government or its policies." 444 U.S. at 355. "Commanders sometimes may apply these regulations 'irrationally, invidiously, or arbitrarily,' thus giving rise to legitimate claims under the First Amendment." Id. at 357 n. 15.

[paul cowley]

Tony......you reference;

AMERICAN SOCIETY OF GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTS
March 2000

GUIDELINES FOR PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT

2.  A golf course architect shall not indulge in self laudatory… publicity.....etc.

I joined the Society after this date and I can't seem to find this publication....although the search engine available to me in my Mexican hotel room at 4:30 am [adobe acrobat] keeps having to close down when I attempt to open the Bylaws pdf section that anyone can find if they want to go to the ASGCA website themselves so.....that said, and if there is nothing there published of which you speak, then I am not sure how to answer, except to make assumptions.

Maybe they waived the Guidelines for Professional Conduct section just for me...which would have been nice of them .

.....but even assuming this has been published somewhere by the ASGCA, I don't see what the issue is with a group asking its members [who have joined voluntarily], to refrain from 'self laudatory publicity, etc, etc,' if it chooses to and the members agree.

I don't see where it restricts non members or 'up and comers' from tooting their own horns.

I must be missing something here.......or maybe not....except that this threads starting to seem like a bad penny.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tony,

Thanks for posting the AIA link, it makes for intersting reading.

My take on it is this - I think ASGCA's versions have always been loosely based on AIA.  I think AIA, as  a bigger organization has faced questions and complaints such as yours and brought in the lawyers to update what should have been a simple code to the more complicated document they have now.

ASGCA has generally followed the AIA lead, but without the resources to bring in the lawyers!  Our code was probably drafted by members, following an old format, so unfortunatley, I can see ASGCA getting more complicated in its ethics code over time. As an example, we have adopted a policy similar to AIA for ASGCA members testifying in court cases in the last few years, whereas we never felt we had to address it before.

Other revisions include adding the discrimination clauses, and eliminating provisions against advertising, and discount pricing, all of which have now been dropped, primarily to keep up with current laws.

I would hate to see ASGCA morph from a simple code to a more complicated one now used by AIA to guard against some future lawsuit. I would go towards more simplicity - treat clients, the public, the environment and cohorts in the industry as you would want to be treated, and follow the ten commandments in your professional lives.  That is kind of what AIA has done with their "canons" but then gone on to describe in detail some examples of what it means.


You argue that any limitations on free speech should conform to thigher constitutional principles.  I think it should conform to the laws, as our other codes and various changes do.  In fact, while no lawyer, I don't think any actions have been declared unconstitutional, just laws passed by various govt. agencies.  When actions are challenged, I think they are challenged under civil rights laws passed by Congress.

There are some limitations to free speech under the law, as I pointed out earlier, and to my knowledge, no one has sucessfully challenged the idea that voluntary limitations of free speech as condition to membership in any group is against the law.  

That said, if there are successful court challenges to this, I would possibly change my opinion and of course, ASGCA would have to change.  Over the years, we have had a few applicants rattle sabres, but none have actually gone to a court case.  None was even contemplated as a "big picture issue" - only an individual issue of a member being denied.

For the moment, if we frame it in the "rights" argument, the corrollary question would be "Does a professional society have a right to set standards for membership?"  I would argue yes, provided those standards don't violate the law, such as discriminating based on race, etc. as our code suggests.  

You effectively and apparently argue no, that all must be included regardless as their "right" as being in the profession.

Tony, in your view, is membership in ASGCA or EIGCA a "right" just because you have hung out your shingle in the biz?

In most of the cases, our courts say discriminating on behavior and performance is acceptable.  For example, if a minority claims discrimination in a termination, the company has to have facts that the employee had a bad record or violated company policy, etc. to prove the termination was performance related.  

Tony, please acknowledge, since I posted the code in its entirety, that you are not using the current ASGCA code to make your argument.

But yes, to answer your question, I think that anyone contemplating joining ASGCA or EIGCA would in fact try to live up to the general code established by them.  I believe the code is within the law, your argumnents notwithstanding.

Sadly for all, if you really believe your opinions, then I guess you have the option to challenge in court.  Challenging in the court of public opinion hasn't drawn much response so far, other than from members of ASGCA reading this.

Cheers.


 

[Tony Ristola]

QUOTE:
I can see ASGCA getting more complicated in its ethics code over time
END

In actuality it would be a tremendous simplification for all.

If you've followed the AIA loosely, why not copy their rules and regs? You get the benefit of their experience, and their code is 4 pages with a preamble. Or the NPSE? That's about what, two pages. Simple, easy and clear. They are very similar and aimed at protecting everyone. Clients, professionals, industry...speech.

As for the court of public opinion, I did see a little support (perhaps reluctant), and little for your defense of censorship. That said, I always thought the following was a good bit of advice:

"You are neither right nor wrong because people agree with you."
Benjamin Graham

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tony,

I disagree that it would simplify it for all.  In general, every time we write a more detailed rule, it leads to even more questions, in a way, like detailed specs and contracts lead to more questions.  Of course, you will need to get in EIGCA and serve in some capacity, and I think you will find that out.

In general, we think that if we get 182 golf course architects in a room, and if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, etc. we can tell that its a duck, at least as it relates to golf architecture issues.  To me, the simple statement is codifying what is for most of us, the golden rule.

And, BTW, you give others grief for not answering your specific questions, but you haven't answered mine......but here is one more - would you want your competitors saying untruthful things about you?  Isn't that type of statement against you in your EIGCA application (or generally in the golf architecture community in Europe) what fuels this debate?

[Tom_Doak]

I could see this going on forever, although without David M. or Pat M. to fan the flames, it will never set a record for # of posts.  So, let's cut to the chase ...

Tony, it's clear to me that you don't (or shouldn't) want to be a member of one of these organizations since you feel your individual rights might be compromised in some way.  I have sometimes felt the same way, which is one reason I've never applied to any of the societies for membership.

So why continue the debate about somebody else's rules?

The only reason I can think of is that you feel the EIGCA (like the ASGCA here) purports to represent all "professional golf course architects" and you are being left out in the woods by that perception.

[Lester George]

Isn't just easier to say that some organizations adopt rules to have the ability to keep some individuals out.  Every private club in the world has exclusionary rules, that the essence of their priviosity.  Every new prive or equity club I have been involved basically calls it an "asshole" clause.  If you're one of those, you need not apply, even if you have all of the other credintials.  If, at some time during your tenure in the organization you become on of those, here is your money back, see you later.  

Tony
I just don't think it's as easy as you want to make it sound, don't quote me other orgs, definitely don't quote me military standards,  it sounds to me like you have a beef and want to make it sound like it is the fault of the ASGCA.  As a new member, who definitely knows about this issue (disparaging remarks and getting past those who make them), I'm telling you the rules are there to protect the organization and it's members, and it's future members.  

Try to get past this, you are only bringing hardship on yourself and your talents.  

Lester

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