Could a lesser course on that exact same property generate the same feelings?

 

JES, while it's not exactly what you are looking for, I have a personal "comparison" to offer as an answer. I have played Torrey Pines South and North at least 50 times. While it sits on higher bluffs, the views are amazing and I've never tired of them. Having said that, there is no comparison in regards to the courses. PB is clearly a superior course. While I do still get excited when I play TP, it's not near to the extent of PB because I know how special the course is. And TP is no slouch. The short anwer is no, if a lesser course occupied the same property, it would not excite me as much.

JesII--
A slight oversight on my part.  But I'd include 9-10 with 16-18. Nice scenery, rather bland as golf holes.

Bland?!? You must be freaking joking!!!

9-10 at pebble away from the water aren't that special.  Both in the 450 range (save the exact yardages for someone else, I don't have the scorecard in front of me) and the apporach at 10 is similar to the appoarch at 8, just not as good.  I love the Pacific Ocean as much or more then anyone (I've spent nearly 30 years living on it) but its impossible to judge these holes on the merits of themselfs.  One can not ignore the scenery.

Torrey Pines is the poster child for average golf in a great setting.  Although the cliffs at Torrey a high enough that routing holes close to them would have been a safety issue...  

Tom--

The greens at pebble are two small to be intresting.  One Macro-break a green.  I've played pebble twice, and looped 15 times and don't remember anything on 9 as maddening.
As for scenery, its a HUGE part of a golf course.  But how much influence it has is different for every golfer.  Do I grow bored of the Pacific Ocean?  Nope.  The opposite is true, becuase it changes so rapidly.  But I can dismiss it when discussing the merits of a golf hole.

JOe, are we talking about the same course??

9 and 10 are real wow holes IMO, I like the risk/reward that the better line into the 9th is from the right-so flirt with the ocean, 10 is a similar hole, as i remember the beach plays more of a part doesn't it. i know i went 3 6 6 3 3 from 8 to 12. and at 9 i caught a trap on the left off the tee, it was a outsideways situation. there was some interesting broken ground in front of 9 as well. 10 was a bit more visually pretty.
Tom, I really saw nothing in the 3rd but on a once play visit its easy to miss the subtle things... any pics of 3? i take your point about pebbles first tee bottom twitch situation.

Joe:

You've made no enemy in me; quite the contrary.  I just find our ways of looking at golf courses to be so different, it's fruitless to debate.  You're not going to convince me and I'm certainly not going to convince you.

I never said your opinion was invalid (outside of the first time when I was just trying to have some fun).

I just look at this very differently than you do.

In any case, you do make a good point about small greens in general; I just find no lack of lag putts at Pebble, nor any green where one gets the same chip every time.  

It's all good.  I just have learned that at times it's better to just give up than beat a dead horse.  So like I say, vive l'difference.

I will advise this, from experience in forums such as these:  if you do want to keep things friendly and have good-natured discussion, a suggestion that the other party needs to read more does not help.  But I suppose I deserved that to some extent.

 

JesII--

I'm not going to attempt a re-model of Pebble Beach off the top of my dome.  But as a fan of this web site I think both of you would admit that varitey is a good thing in golf course design.  
If your Iron game if off at Pebble and you can't hit a 60 degree wedge to save your life then it is going to be a long day.  Conversely, at some of the other course I've mentioned this wouldn't be a death sentence because of the varitey of the green complexes.  

Tom--

I've been around Pebble Twice as a player, and yes I hit some bump and runs into a couple of greens.  More because I was intrested in seeing the results, and because I detest the 60 degree wedge.  As I Caddie I can't recall once asking a player to play a bump and run.  I would have likely been laughed off the golf couse.  

JesII--

I'm not going to attempt a re-model of Pebble Beach off the top of my dome.  But as a fan of this web site I think both of you would admit that varitey is a good thing in golf course design.  
If your Iron game if off at Pebble and you can't hit a 60 degree wedge to save your life then it is going to be a long day.  Conversely, at some of the other course I've mentioned this wouldn't be a death sentence because of the varitey of the green complexes.  

Joe,

There is another thread going on (maybe on to page 2) about architect bashing and you can read my opinion of what you have just done there.

You have spent 10 posts or so laying out reasons Pebble falls short for you...one of them is a lack or green size to ably challenge your lag putting...i aks for an example of a hole that might be better with a bigger green and you come up with "I'm not going to attempt to re-model Pebble off the top of my dome". With all due respect, that's a cop out. the biggest negative on this site is the ability to make statements that you need not defend. If your opinion should be so respected as you suggest, you might want to support it with logic and reason.

If you don't see a variety from #4 to #10 to #14 to #18 I feel for you. In fact that might explain calling #'s 9 and 10 mundane.

Joe -

As noted, making an enemy of America's Guest is nearly impossible.  

The one flaw that you do possess is one extra letter in your last name.

Regards,

Mike Ben - no t - ham