Tom Huckaby,

Notre Dame has a history of a winning football program and a history of having amongst the highest graduation rates for their scholarship athletes, so I'm not troubled by the score of any one game.

My interest, concern and suggestions regarding graduation rates for scholarship athletes, especially football and basketball playres, goes back close to 40 years, when a young man who was a football player and classmate of my wife's at Syracuse was shot and killed by a robber while he was driving a TAXI cab, after his college football career was over.  This was a handsome, nice young man, who could play football, but was either abandoned, or exempted by the system when it came to obtaining an education.  
That was the begining of my concern regarding this issue.  

My concern was revitalized when I heard from others that virtually no basketball players graduated from Memphis State and a number of other schools that I can't remember, for a good number of years.

Would I like to see ND win a National Championship ?  Sure.
But, I'd rather see the NCAA clean up its act, and have all colleges that provide scholarships for their athletes, do likewise under the type of program that I outlined above, such that each scholarship athlete gets an education.

And, if that means that the caliber of play suffers, so be it.

There is no question that today's athletes are bigger, faster, stronger, more fit and more athletic, but if implementing this program meant that the quality of basketball and football would revert back to the game played 20 years ago, so be it.
It would still be fun to watch, the rivalries would remain and everyone would benefit.

The NCAA and the participating schools need to reexamine their purpose and goals in this arena.

Tom MacWood,

I'd quess, without any research, Paul Brown.

If Johnny Dee benefited, his record never reflected it.
What were the names of some of those players he recruited vis a vis lower academic standards

How was your brother made aware of the deviation in recruiting standards and climate under the era of Ara ?
And by whom ?

I agree with Pat on this.  I do believe something should be done in regard to the replenishment of scholarships in football and basketball.  Sadly, this would not change anything at ND,NU,Duke but I believe some of the other schools would graduate the kids with phoney scholarships.  At least now they have the decency to not give many a fake degree.

As it now stands they do everything to keep the kids eligible, they may do some funky things if they also have to graduate them.

I do not worry about "quality of play".  Basketball and Football are both more entertaining on the NCAA level and clearly the pro leagues have better players.

Hammy,

Great point on Minority Students.  Michigan has been to the Supreme Court over the issue of lowering their standards to insure diversity (Please do not read this as my support of UofM's position).  It is an absolute fact that the average scores and grades for admission of minority students are far below that for non-minorities.  It is also an absolute fact that the makeup of Football and Basketball teams are extremely disproportionately populated with minority’s vis-ŕ-vis the regular student population.  I have never seen anyone do the statistic but it would be extremely interesting to see the average scores for all admitted minority students vs. those for scholarship athletes.  I wonder how much that would tighten up the gap.

In 1997, the average student ND SAT was 1,314.  The football players were 389 lower, or 925,  70% of the general students' average.

70% isnt quite accurate.  Remember they give you 400 pts just for showing up.   So if we adjust out the free 400, then the athletes are only at 57.5% of the average students.   Definitely lower, but in Notre Dame's defense, they I think other schools go quite a bit lower than this.  

I too would like to see the minority athletes numbers as compared compared to the over all numbers.  Keep in mind that the 57.5 includes minorities and non-minorities, and also includes all the those hard working student/scholars that Notre Dame gets.  (I am not kidding.  I am sure that Notre Dame gets some pretty smart student athletes.)

So, my guess would be the minority students have better numbers than the minority student-athletes.  

But to you all who are arguing that we are giving these kids a chance as we well should, were you marching with the same band a few months ago when a few UM's program was under attack, by plaintiffs and the Bush Administration?  Why the change?

And for those who think we are doing a service by letting these low scoring athletes into these institututions, think of how much pressure a football schedule puts on the smart kids.  Do you really think the less-than-smart and less-than-prepared kids get much out of it?  

Don't forget, you get 800 just for putting your name on the stupid thing!  The scale is 800 to 1600, and scoring 15% of even this hypothetical scale (125/800) is not terribly impressive, given that you basically have to be a complete bonehead who hasn't paid any attention to anything in 12 years of academics not to get at least 900-something.  

Dave - You get 400 points for showing up and signing your name.  The above post may sum up why this Michigan Man beat you by over 400 points (Perhaps you signed you name wrong)  

DMoriarty-Who should be the arbitor of who deserves special advantage?  I would prefer rather than solely focusing on race we focus more on economic advantage/disadvantage.  In electioneeringspeak my prefeerence  may be called "racist".  

Wigs,

Are you worried that the Fighting Ducks of the University of Oregon are going to upset your vaunted Big Blue this weekend in Eugene.  

Don't be surprised, upsets seem to happen at Autzen.

Tom MacWood,

The problem with your position is that it encourages abuses.

You may want to take another look at the ND roster in 66.

And, why does a roster have to have a diversity of players in order to be a valid team ?  When last I looked, I didn't notice a diversity on players on many basketball or swimming teams.

Tom MacWood,

I think you're forgeting that ND was a Catholic school, not a state school, with 95-99 % of the student body, including athletes, Catholic.  ND always benefited from recruiting the best athletes from Catholic High Schools throughout the country.  Today, the pipeline isn't so exclusive.  
ND admited black athletes in the early to mid 50's, long before many other schools.
The admissions policy has undergone change since 1966.  You will also note that there were no female students at ND in 1966.  That too has changed.

The reason for the abuse is:  Who decides ?
And what are the standards, or are there none ?  
Does it become discretionary, based on the coach or AD ?

Universities can take minority students with lower academic credentials into their general population, and do.  
The moment you tie reduced academic standards to the basketball and football programs, you're going to get abuses.  Just dial up the most recent NCAA graduation statistics and see how appauling they are.

You maintain that taking in student/athletes with poor to abysmal allows them to experience college life, but, if they don't get an education, if they don't graduate, what good is it ?

The extension of this policy, the lowering of standards, has also led to the recruiting of a criminal element over the last 10 or so years.  It was/is pervasive in football and basketball, and needs to be eradicated.

Are you saying that talent should be the determining factor for recruiting, not racial/minority quotas ?

The Ivy League may have it right.

Perhaps college isn't for everyone, including gifted athletes.

Pat,

I believe that even in the Ivy League it is far easier for student athletes to gain admission than general applicants.  Just not scholarships.  When the affirmative action debate was raging, people raised the issue of GWB's admission, and an article claimed (on decent proof I recall) that athletes in specific sports got a bigger leg up than legacy admissions by the Ivys.

Jeff Goldman

Tom MacWood,

What abuses? ...

A kid can't succeed in life without a diploma? A kid from a difficult background can't possibly turn his life around without a sheepskin? You are not taking into account the differing starting points...success is relative.

You just don't get it.

They're not getting their diplomas, they're not graduating.

Go look at the NCAA graduation statistics.
Those are the facts.

Perhaps the States need to beef up their commitment and improve their educational standards in the public schools.

Private schools are not obligated to function at a level commensurate with the lowest common denominator.

How do Princeton, Harvard, Yale and other Ivy League schools recruit ? in the inner cities, taking those 6th grade students that Shivas refered to ? I don't think so.

You implied earlier, that talent should get the nod, does this just apply to athletics, or are academics included.

Education, not athletics must come first.