Pat:  It's maybe 110 yards from the middle of 10 green to the middle of 11.  

John's short par 4 would cause some guys to fire blindly over the dune to the right of 10 to try and drive the 11th green in winter months, and it would endanger people playing the 5th hole, unless we changed that as well.

Early on we considered playing a short par-4 from behind the 11th green to the current upper 9th green, but we decided that too many people would lose their tee shot down into the tenth fairway, and anyway that created a closed loop -- you could play to lower nine green and then into that loop, but once you were on the upper ninth green there would be no way to get another tee anywhere close to it.

For John's 10th/11th combination:

The "go for the green" drive would be blind.  But if you laid up, wouldn't it be a neat pitch to a skyline green? I know you like these Patrick

How much space behind the current 10th lower tee before you start to interfere with 7 on Bandon?  i.e. if you wanted to extend this hole.

Guys, I'd give up the exercise...a fun thought provoker but one that leads to too many dead ends unless you start routing from scratch....you would be much better off analyzing re-routing Pebbles 9 thru 13 in reverse as opposed to screwing with her nearest competitor, Pacific Dunes.

Amen to that, Tony.

Quote from: Tony Titheridge on April 03, 2006, 04:55:44 AM

Yet another perfectly worthy question, but one which again highlights the American fascination with the scorecard over the actual golf course. Worse still, that people here are admitting that when they put down the scorecard and play the course, they like this stretch and feel no such awkwardness on it. When the day comes that I play on a scorecard and write my numbers down on a golf course, I'll possibly come closer to this way in thinking.

Tony,

I don't understand what a fascination with a scorecard has to do with a dislike of four par 3's in the final nine holes.  Like Tom has said above many people like the configuration because it helps them shoot a lower score.  I personally play nothing but match play and have zero idea what I shot at any of the Bandon courses...My problem centers around competition and interesting shot making.  I don't know about you but in almost every game I play the back nine plays a different role than the front.  In other words the back nine is worth more in more ways than one.  This being said it disappoints me to see so many scoring shots hit off of perfectly flat areas with a ball on a peg.  It disappoints me to see the ignorant golfer go unchallenged on so many holes...It disappoints me to see the luck of a bounce removed from the game...the gamble taken from the gamble.  To put it bluntly...Tell me..Given the great history of this game and the role the driver has played, how can one of the greatest courses ever built in modern times not require a decent drive on the home stretch of 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18.

Interesting question regarding 14-18.
But can you par or even compete on #18 without a solid drive?

-Ted

John, on paper, what you say about #18 is true.  But, into the wind, all of a sudden, it's a driver, 3 wood, 5 iron (which is what I hit last time I played it and, while not crazy long, I'm by no means a short hitter).  That's not such an easy par.

What are the strategic choices presented to the golfer on 18 tee...or should I say choice.  Long or longer that is..Is the left bunker a paper tiger..

Tim,

Once the good player is in the sand on the left does he have any further trouble with the hole....Is there any true penalty for pulling the drive..

Tim,

Once the good player is in the sand on the left does he have any further trouble with the hole....Is there any true penalty for pulling the drive..

Ah, that's what you meant by "paper tiger."  I've never played that shot but I've had a look from over there and it's not pretty.  As Tom says, it's a shot that you have to get up in a hurry if you're going forward.  If you're able to do that, it's completely blind and you will lose distance.  Into the wind, that may mean playing a wood into a green guarded by some nasty bunkers (which I know you don't care for too much).  As I recall, the guys I've seen in there ended up with some big numbers.  It's enough of a penalty that you are tempted to drive to the right side and, although the fairway is quite wide, you can run out of fairway over there and driving right makes the hole play longer.  

I would rate #18 in the bottom third of the holes at Pacific, but it's still a good hole.  I'm sure some people don't like ending on a three-shot par 5.  But, it's not a bad way to end a testing round (particularly in the windy afternoon), with a shot to play with so you can be off a little and still have a chance to make it into the house with a par.  And, it's a brute into the wind.  In my group, my driver, 3 wood, 5 iron made me the only player to come close to hitting the green in regulation.  

Michael,

We had a great time that day didn't we...I'm trying to recall the details of our match..Were we even after 17 holes.  I think I remember winning the 18th but am not sure about the match..

I thought the 18th won us something even if it was only one half a point.  With all this talk about how a guy gets to the green it is hard to believe a father and a son could take four putts to get it in the hole..Doak is a genius..It must have been all those putts that made me thing a single drive wasn't that vital..

3 putts!  THE FIRST WAS FROM OFF THE GREEN.  If I recall correctly IT WAS A WAR OF ATTRITION    Quality was not a word I would have used to describe the golf that day!!!

It's funny how one's perceptions about a golf course are coloured by their ability off the tee. I can't remember hitting anything other than a fairway wood into 18 as the third shot.