Your Top 10

« **Reply #100 on:** October 17, 2005, 12:12:05 PM »

The match play method to me only works if you pit Par fives against fives, fours against fours, threes against three, etc.

However, the flaw there is which holes do you pit against the other... $:-\$

« **Reply #101 on:** October 17, 2005, 02:01:58 PM »

SHINNECOCK VS. PINE VALLEY

par 3
#2 " #5
#7 " #3
#11 " #10
#17 " #14
par 5
#5 " #7
#16 " #15
short 4
#1 " #6
#4 " #8
#8 " #17
#10 " #2
#13 " #12
medium 4
#14 " #1
#15 " #11
long 4
#3 " #9
#6 " #13
#9 " #16
#12 " #4
#18 " #18

Have at it Mike, Wayne and Kyle.

« **Reply #102 on:** October 17, 2005, 02:27:18 PM »

Sully,

Didn't you forget two par threes?

Likely 11 Shinney vs 10 PV and 17 Shinney vs 14 PV, right?

« **Reply #103 on:** October 17, 2005, 02:37:01 PM »

Good call Mike, I was cross-eyed trying to figure out how each hole would math up I am amazed that's the only ommission.

I'll go edit that one right now.

Thanks

« **Reply #104 on:** October 17, 2005, 02:55:44 PM »

Quote from: JES II on October 17, 2005, 02:01:58 PM

SHINNECOCK VS. PINE VALLEY

par 3
#2 " #5
#7 " #3
#11 " #10
#17 " #14
par 5
#5 " #7
#16 " #15
short 4
#1 " #6
#4 " #8
#8 " #17
#10 " #2
#13 " #12
medium 4
#14 " #1
#15 " #11
long 4
#3 " #9
#6 " #13
#9 " #16
#12 " #4
#18 " #18

Using my bonus points system for routs..

Par 3's
PV - 2up
Push
PV - 1up
Push

Par 5's
PV - 2up
PV - 1up

Short par 4's
Even
PV - 1up
Push
Push
Push

Medium par 4's
Even
SH - 1up

Long par 4's
Push
Even
SH - 1up
Push
SH - 2up

Wow...I didn't expect that result. I'm probably not giving the short 4's at PV enough credit.

« **Reply #105 on:** October 17, 2005, 03:16:48 PM »

OK, Sully. Here I go. Yours to follow, right?

SH 2 vs. PV 5
PV 1 up, but not by much

SH7 vs. PV 3
Even, by more if the Flynn tee was used

SH 11 vs. PV 10
SH 1 up, 11 is the greatest short par 3 in my experience

SH 17 vs. PV 14
SH remains 1 up

SH 5 vs. PV 7
Even, put Flynn's original bunkering in and extend the alternative fairway and it would be very close

SH 16 vs. PV 15
SH 1 up, very slim margin here

SH 1 vs. PV 6
Two of the great tee shots in golf. I would have matched the first holes, there's only about a 35 yard difference. But I'll stick to the examination as presented.
SH remains 1 up

SH 4 vs. PV 8
There's almost a 100 yard difference here. I'll give 8 an ever so slight edge, but it is under protest.
Even

SH 8 vs. PV 17
Another distance differential, this one 70 yards. Come on Sully, what's happening?
SH 1 up, but it would be a different story if the alternate fairway was recovered on 17.

SH 10 vs. PV 2
Nearly a 50 yard difference. But I love the 2nd hole just a wee bit more than the underrated 10th.
Even

SH 13 vs. PV 12
Its a tough one. I'm giving 12 at PV penalty points for not opening up the view to the green from the tee and taking away Flynn's bunkers and mounds in the trees. The verdict would sway the other way if the work was ever done.
SH 1 up

SH 14 vs. PV 1
Not close. The greatest tee shot in golf at 14 with a terrific approach shot. More nerves on the first at PV but the tee shot is much less demanding though there's more trouble around the green at PV.
SH 2 up

SH 15 vs. PV 11
Nice aerial demand on the approach to 15 which also gets some vista points. The bunkering, especially on the right needs to be brought back to the sandy waste area it once was. The circular bunker on the right looks terribly out of place.
SH 3 up

SH 3 vs. Pine Valley 9
More interesting tee shot and second shot at SH. Closest hole to Macdonald's plan with Flynn tee, bunkering and green.
SH 4 up

SH 6 vs. PV 13
The second best long par 4 at SH vs one of the best on the planet.
SH 3 up

SH 9 vs. PV 16
Very close, I'll give the slightest edge to PV (mostly because SH is 3 up)
SH 2 up

SH 12 vs. PV 4
Too close to call.
SH 2 up

SH 18 vs. PV 18
Great finish at PV with the tee lengthened. Without it, I'd say the two finishers are very close.
SH 1 up

For a while there, especially in the beginning, I had no idea how this was going to come out.

« **Reply #106 on:** October 17, 2005, 03:23:27 PM »

Mikey,

What happened, man? I just filed my report and now I see yours. Very interesting. What do you mean you may not have given enough credit to the short par 4s at PV? The yardages must have been hard for Sully to match up. I thought it was favoring PV myself. I feel pretty good about my analysis but I sure do like (and forgot about) your using 2 points with a knockout.

« **Reply #107 on:** October 17, 2005, 03:37:58 PM »

Haven't played a ton yet, so I'll keep it to a Top 7 and eliminate some noteworthy courses which don't quite qualify highly enough in my mind to share the company of these:

Crystal Downs
Kingsley Club
Greywalls
Pine Needles
Milwaukee CC
Tobacco Road
Lawsonia Links

With hopefully many more to come in the future...

« **Reply #108 on:** October 17, 2005, 03:50:28 PM »

I'd love to join you gentleman, but having never played both, and only brief glimpses of PV, I can't.

Sully,

How did you set up the matches? strictly yardage?

Brian,

Get to Philly... soon...

« **Reply #109 on:** October 17, 2005, 04:01:35 PM »

I'd be a fool to admit to actually trying to line up yardages against each other considering the lambasting Wayne is working on.

I tried to break the par 4's into short medium and long and ran into trouble with the number of short four's PV has compared to Shinnecock so I manipulated a bit. I don't think yardage is the only ingredient though Wayne, #2 at PV can easily play longer than #10 at Shinnecock. I matched them because I really love both holes.

I'm not stuck to this setup, so any suggestions are fine.

I'll try to answer the present form though.

« **Reply #110 on:** October 17, 2005, 04:11:17 PM »

Quote from: JES II on October 17, 2005, 02:01:58 PM

SHINNECOCK VS. PINE VALLEY

par 3
#2 " #5 PV 1 UP
#7 " #3 EVEN
#11 " #10 SH 1 UP
#17 " #14 SH 2 UP
par 5
#5 " #7 SH 2 UP
#16 " #15 SH 1 UP
short 4
#1 " #6 EVEN
I switched 8 and 17 PV[/color]
#4 " #17 PV 1 UP
#8 " #8 EVEN
#10 " #2 PV 1 UP
#13 " #12 EVEN
medium 4
#14 " #1 PV 1UP
#15 " #11 EVEN
long 4
#3 " #9 SH 1 UP
#6 " #13 SH 1 UP
#9 " #16 SH 2 UP
#12 " #4 SH 1 UP
#18 " #18 EVEN

My final score is all even.

« **Reply #111 on:** October 17, 2005, 04:21:06 PM »

Sully,

You like 8 at Shinny over 8 at PV?

Wow...this is quite the contest.

« **Reply #112 on:** October 17, 2005, 04:26:42 PM »

I do.

I've always thought the green set you up from the beginning. Not that #8 PV is weak by any means, a really cool and difficult hole, but as long as you hit the fairway with your 220 club you have a 70 to 100 yard wedge shot. True, what a wedge shot it is, (the only wedge shot Shinnecock can counter with is the 80 yarder from the bottom of #10) but the 8th at Shinnecock offers a little more for my money.

« **Reply #113 on:** October 17, 2005, 04:27:46 PM »

Jim,

You're right about 10 at Shinnecock, as it rarely plays like the scorecard yardage.

What if you didn't make the change, how would things have come out for you?

Given that you make the rules (and I don't have any problem with that) instead of SH 4 vs PV 8, it is SH 4 vs PV 17. I agree that 17 comes out ahead of 4. And SH 8 vs. PV 8 rather than SH 8 vs PV 17. I'll take PV 8 over SH 8, but not by a lot. This would make my score even at the end as well. I see in comparing the number 8 holes you gave the nod to SH which is certainly reasonable. I just saw your reasoning in your response to Mike Cirba. That is a fine decision. I too like the way Flynn offset the green to the line of play. It makes for a really interesting hole.

"(the only wedge shot Shinnecock can counter with is the 80 yarder from the bottom of #10) but the 8th at Shinnecock offers a little more for my money."

And like a few holes at Rolling Green, you can have the same wedge shot on 10 at Shinnecock more than once in the same round

« **Reply #114 on:** October 17, 2005, 04:40:33 PM »

Wayne,

As you observed, I had a tough time figuring out which holes should/could match up against each other. I made that switch (PV 8 and 17) when I realized PV 8 and SH 4 are so different in terms of length. I had not even though about matching up the holes. I would say of those four specific holes my favorite would be SH #8, then the two from PV, then SH #4. I thikn they are all very good, with very little spread between the four. That being said, I guess #8 at PV would get the nod over #4 Sh and #8 SH would over #17 PV. Zero net effect on the outcome.

« **Reply #115 on:** October 17, 2005, 05:03:36 PM »

That was a fun exercise.

How would you guys compare the short par 4 holes at Merion East with the short par 4 holes at Pine Valley? In my experience, these three courses (with SHGC) have some of the best short par 4s in golf.

8 PV (319) vs. 10 ME (312) PV 1 up
17 PV (338) vs. 7 ME (350) PV 1 up
12 PV (344) vs. 8 ME (360) PV 1 up
2 PV (367) vs. 11 ME (370) PV 1 up
6 PV (388) vs. 12 ME (375) EVEN

« **Reply #116 on:** October 17, 2005, 08:24:26 PM »

Wayne,

Looking at your comparisons above reinforces to me how excellent Merion-East is. I look at your comparisons and think, those holes at Merion stack up very, very well to those at the world's number one.

« **Reply #117 on:** October 17, 2005, 09:10:16 PM »

OK Wayne,

PV 8 over Merion 10
7 Merion over PV 17
12 PV halves with Merion 8
2 PV over Merion 11
12 Merion over 6 PV

Looks like all square.

« **Reply #118 on:** October 17, 2005, 11:22:32 PM »

All right, I'll admit the fun is figuring out your list.. and this is courses I've played, and there are hundreds of great ones I've not.. and I don't think playing TOC twice is enough to judge..

Royal County Down
Turnberry
Royal Dornoch
Royal Melbourne (West)
Pinehusrt #2
Ganton
Garden City
West Sussex
Kingston Heath
Nairn

« **Reply #119 on:** October 18, 2005, 07:27:38 AM »

Lloyd,

Come back to Philadelphia next spring and let's see if your personal list changes

I see you have Nairn over Western Gailes. I loved them both but only playing each one once, it seems to be a bit of an upset in my mind. I know you know them a lot better than I so I'd welcome your comparison/contrast of the two. If you have time, that is.

« **Reply #120 on:** October 18, 2005, 07:45:26 AM »

Jeff, Jim,

The short holes at Merion East, where most think they'll score well on, are interesting architecturally and also quite demanding holes that do stack up well with Pine Valley's great holes. I'd be interested to seeing the full-field scores on the short holes at Merion after the US Amateur.

Pine Valley is superb in every regard. It is unique in looks, influencial in design and it remains a wonderful test of golf. It surely deserves its world-wide acclaim. Its a wonder to me if the number of great short holes at Pine Valley were in fact influenced by the short holes at Merion which, in turn, may have been influenced by the number of great short holes at NGLA.

NGLA originally had four great short holes:
1 310 yards
2 262
14 355
17 360

And three great medium holes:
8 386
12 385
15 383

What other early courses (pre-1920 perhaps as a cutoff) had so many great short par 4 holes in America? In Europe?

« **Reply #121 on:** October 18, 2005, 08:33:29 AM »

Wayne

Western Gailes has that group of holes 3/4 of the way through the round going away from the clubhouse again, that are good holes, but they feel too similar in succession. That was the only weakness I saw. Nairn had the best greens I've played in the UK. I must add that I didn't take more than 10 minutes ruminating, and I know that my Top Ten albums, which I'm asked for fairly often, changes every time.

Quote from: Wayne Morrison on October 18, 2005, 07:27:38 AM

Lloyd,

Come back to Philadelphia next spring and let's see if your personal list changes

I see you have Nairn over Western Gailes. I loved them both but only playing each one once, it seems to be a bit of an upset in my mind. I know you know them a lot better than I so I'd welcome your comparison/contrast of the two. If you have time, that is.

« **Reply #122 on:** March 28, 2007, 08:05:18 PM »

Well, Top 10 lists change every year in the publications, so why not in our world? Now, I can imagine Doak's probably hasn't changed, unless he would like to add Ballyneal to the list, but then again he already has 12 on his Top 10.

Here is my original Top 10, followed by the new top 10 having played 23 new courses since I've been out in California.

ORIGINAL
1. Crystal Downs Country Club - Frankfort, Michigan
2. Hamilton Farm Golf Club – Gladstone, New Jersey
3. Spring Hill Golf Club – Wayzata, Minnesota*
4. Forest Dunes Golf Club – Roscommon, Michigan
5. Robert Trent Jones Golf Club – Gainesville, Virginia*
6. Arcadia Bluffs Golf Club – Arcadia, Michigan
7. Tullymore Golf Club – Stanwood, Michigan*
8. Bucks Run Golf Club – Mt. Pleasant, Michigan
9. Sedona Golf Resort – Sedona, Arizona
10. Pilgrims Run Golf Club – Pierson, Michigan

2007 VERSION
1. Crystal Downs Country Club - Frankfort, Michigan
2. San Francisco Golf Club – San Francisco, California
3. Whistling Straits, Straits – Haven, Wisconsin
4. Monterey Peninsula Country Club, Shore – Pebble Beach, California
5. Pasatiempo Golf Club – Santa Cruz, California
6. Spyglass Hill Golf Course – Pebble Beach, California
7. The Olympic Club, Lake – San Francisco, California
8. Hamilton Farm Golf Club – Gladstone, New Jersey
9. Whistling Straits, Irish – Haven, Wisconsin
10. The Meadow Club – Fairfax, California*

Just as a comparison, Pilgrims Run, which was #10 on my original list, is now #23.

Of my previous Top 10, the one that fell the farthest was Bucks Run, which is currently at #32.

« **Reply #123 on:** March 29, 2007, 12:21:50 AM »

In no particular order:

Oak Valley -- Beaumont, California

Rancho Santa Fe CC -- Rancho Santa Fe, California

Pauma Valley -- Pauma Valley, California

Pinehurst #2

Riviera CC

Pebble Beach

North Ranch CC -- Westlake Village, California (sentimental reasons)

Hillcrest CC -- Los Angeles, California (sentimental reasons)

Stevinson Ranch -- Stevinson, California

Rustic Canyon -- Moorpark, California

Golf Club of California -- Fallbrook, California

Oakmont CC -- Glendale, California

I guess that's 12. :-)

« **Reply #124 on:** March 29, 2007, 10:31:14 PM »

Old Course,Muirfield,Kingsbarns,Gullane #1,Pinehurst #2,Pebble Beach,Teeth of Dog,Brook Hollow,Bel-Air,Plantation

News:

Kyle Harris

JESII

Mike_Cirba

JESII

Mike_Cirba

wsmorrison

wsmorrison

Brian_Sleeman

Kyle Harris

JESII

JESII

Mike_Cirba

JESII

wsmorrison

JESII

wsmorrison

Jeff_Mingay

JESII

Lloyd_Cole

wsmorrison

wsmorrison

Lloyd_Cole

Jonathan McCord

David Ober

mike_beene