[Dan_Belden]

With the most recent thread on golf courses in Ohio,  it got me thinking about Kirtland just outside of Cleveland.  Unfortunately I don't have access to my pictures of the course, but rest assured it is a great golf course that deserves disscussion on this site.
   It is both strategic and scenic, and fun for all levels of players.  According to the club it is an Allison solo design, with no input from Colt.  The routing is simply superb, and the back nine routing is one of the best I have ever seen.  The back nine  plays into a river gorge  with and elevation change from the 10th tee to the 10th green that according to the club is in the range of 150 feet.  Every hole on the back nine except one has the ridge or the river incorporated into the design and strategy of the hole.  The 14th is the only hole that doesn't have this feature, and it a wonderfully strategic par 4 of approx  440 yards.  
    The only negative with Kirtland is that it needs some fairly serious tree removal.  I know the club is trying, and several trees have been removed, but it still has a ways  to go.  If they ever get it right, Kirtland could easily be considered one of the very best in the country, let alone the state. It is really that good.  And the back nine is one of the most scenic inland nines I have ever seen.  
  One last mention is that the course has a fabulous set of greens that haven't been touched.  They are in league with courses like Brookside, Canton, Oakland Hills, and Pine Valley.  
   As soon as I get back to Ohio I will post some pictures.  

[Mark Studer]

Dan - I could not agree more. Kirtland is a wonderful course. I was surprised to be the only one to mention it under the best courses in Ohio. You are correct about the club's research claiming only Alison sans Colt in its design.  The putting greens  are simply superb. They are tackling both  tree and firmness issues and have hired a new superintendent for this season.

[Mark Studer]

Forgot to mention that  Ron Forse design  has been consulting and laying out their roadmap.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan / Mark:

Can either of you gents post any specific course info ---

*yardage from various tee boxes

*hole-by-hole accounts if possible

*course rating & slope

Many thanks ...

P.S. Given what I have heard about the course it's on my short list to play. One last question -- can the course legitmately be rated at the level with TGC, MV, Inverness and Camargo? I list those courses because they are the best I have played in the Buckeye State and each would easily make my top 100 listing.

[les_claytor]

I went to check this course out once for a US Open qualifier, but it was rained out.  I walked a few holes and was impressed, but didn't get too far away from the clubhouse.

I think (guessing) the 150 feet elevation change on one hole is an exageration.  Being a native of Cleveland, and having built a few courses there, you would be lucky to find a 150 foot drop in the entire region.  The most elevation change I ever delt with in a hole was 110 feet, so I guess it's possible.  

Tom Weiskopf always said Kirtland was his favorite course in the Cleveland area, and I value his opinion.

[Paul_Turner]

Very interested to see some pics of Hugh Alison's course.  I heard that the early (6 or 8 ?) holes were clearly not as good as the later holes, simply because of the terrain?

[Gene Greco]

I've had several salty old veterans of world travel golf, each a member of one of the venerable three here - Maidstone, Shinny and NGLA - ask me, "Ever play Kirtland in Ohio?"

I've wanted to play this course for years and have not made any effort to do so.

Now I must!  

[Todd_Joseph]

Here's a discussion from a few years ago.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4630

[JohnV]

Matt, no yardages or hole by holes, but courtesy of GHIN.com:

Men`s Rating
TEE: GOLD
Rating Bogey Rating Slope
69.4   92.4             124  
 
TEE: WHITE
Rating Bogey Rating Slope
71.7   95.9             130

 
TEE: BLUE
Rating Bogey Rating Slope
73.6   98.9             136

[Matt_Ward]

John V:

Many thanks for the info ... just wonder again if people really believe Kirtland has the architectural heft to be in the same foursome as TGC, MV, Inverness and Camargo? If it is at THAT level then it's without quesiton a MUST play.

[Chris_Hunt]

Ok, here are some pictures of Kirtland on a sweltering day in the summer before last.  As a whole, I think it ranks near the top of the Cleveland group of courses, but with a superb restoration it could rival the best in the state.  As you can see in some of the pictures, the bunkers need a redo, including adding the ones that got filled in during the war, the cartpaths and bridges kind of suck at times, and the greens seem to have been softened with the ages.  

Indeed, it is easy to see that the back nine possesses the superior contours, although the front isn't on terrible ground.  The lack of true detail is more forgivable on the back though.

Some pictures:

This is from 280 off the tee on the par-5 8th, coming down off of the flattish shelf that the early holes occupy.  There is still a ways to come down, though, but I am not sure if it is 150 or not.



The following hole is a short four.  From the tee:



The approach to the 9th, and also a hedge shot:



Going down from the 10th tee (next two pix)





The short 11th, across the river that comes into play on the next 3-4 holes.  You will see similar carved earth at courses like Mayfield, Elyria, and the Metroparks courses around Cleveland.



An interesting detail on the same hole...this is the front of the green...



Now we climb back up that hill from the 16th tee...think that was always a grass bunker?



The approach to the hillside green from the green stake left of the fairway in the previous picture.  No flagstick, but the green line is flagged if you look closely.



The par-3 17th, with no flagstick and sprinklers flailing:



Very picturesque, and with a little intelligent polishing, Kirtland could improve its already respectable image.  They need to take a hint from the good work fostered by the gentlemen Belden at Brookside.

[Mike_Trenham]

1   412  4
2   467  4
3   164  3
4   415  4
5   385  4
6   175  3
7   382  4
8   534  5
9   425  4

0   3359

10 525  5/4
11 225  3
12 449  4
13 371  4
14 425  4
15 506  5
16 365  4
17 195  3
18 425  4

I 3486 36/35

  6845 71/70

C.H. Alison 1921

The final 11 holes are amoung the best 11 consecutive holes anywhere.  The back nine routing is amazing how he routed the course back up the hill without many blind shots (if any) and the uphill 17 par 3 is excellent.  Holes 15-17 play very much uphill.  It is a bit of a trek uphill from 17 green to 18 tee.  I think there was a incline elevator there but it was not operational so we walked.  Maybe its not as bad as I remember as 18 was our 36th hole that day walking without caddies.

If Kirtland was in Philadelphia it would be the 3rd best course in the state!

[Dan_Belden]

Hey Matt:

   First and foremost Kirtland is really that good.  It needs some help, but the architecture is there.  It's a par 71 that is right around 7,000 yards.  
  1) Nice opening hole that plays downhill and right to left. Fantasticly difficult green with a big slope from back left to front right. Walking down the fairway if you look close you can see some of the bunkers that were filled.
  2)  Big par 4 dogleg from left to right and uphill (exact opposite of #1) of around 450 yards.  Great hole.
  3)  Nice par 3 of 170 or so that begins the section of parallel holes. Severe back to front sloping green with a pond on the right.
  4)   Good uphill par 4 around 400 yards to green with a false front.
5)    Plays back down the hill and parallel to 4, and is about 400 yard plus or minus
 6) Par 3 of 165 yards.  Now with the pond on the right.
  7)  Superb shortish par 4 under 400 yards with a very small angled green, very strategic hole.
   Big par 5 or around 540, but straight uphill after a somewhat blind tee shot into a valley.
  9)  Great par 4 in the 410 range that plays along the edge of the ravine, and is almost exactly the opposite hole of 18.
  10)  Great short par 5 down into the ravine.  One of those tee shots where the ball is in the air forever.  
  11)  Par 3 of 220 with the river tight on the right.
  12) Great par 4 of 460 or so back uphill  and over the river to a brutal two tiered green.
  13)  Fun short par 4 of 340 or so with a small angled green with water all down the right side of the hole. Great short hole.  
 14)  Par 4 dogleg left to right of 430 or so that is very strategic,and the only hole on the back nine that is not on part of the ridge or on the river.
  15)  Short par 5 of 520 or so that is a dogleg from left to right, with neat two tiered green that plays back up the hill.
  16) Another short par 4 of around 350 that is a dogleg left to right that works down from the tee and way up to the green.  This hole would benefit greatly from some tree removal.
17)  Superb par 3 of 190 or so to the most severe green on the course.  
  18)  You take a cable car up from the 17th green to the 18th tee, a par 4 of 420 or  so, dogleg from right to left that plays along the edge of the ravine. It is almost the exact opposite of number nine
   Granted these numbers might be a little off, I have been fortunate enough to play there at  least a few times a year for several years now, and I always can't wait to go back. It is that good.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

I was surprised to be the only one to mention it under the
best courses in Ohio.

I wanted to point this out earlier, but decided against it, but
now that you brought it up again....check the best in Ohio
thread again...no fewer than 4 people mentioned Kirtland
before you did (2 had played it).  

Regardless, I showed Kirtland as an Aerial of the Day way
back at #33, and here it is (I'd have a color version to show if
MapQuest hadn't removed the aerial from their site):

[Mark Studer]

Scott- I should have known better. The treehouse usuallly does recognize  the golden age beauties.  

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

Appreciate the detailed reply. However, when you say the course "needs some help" I have to wonder if such "help" is being planned for implementation or if that is more of a "wish" on your part.

The terrain looks solid and the holes featured offer a good array of differences.

But, my question still stands -- does Kirtland belong in the elite grouping of courses like TGC, MV, Inverness and Camargo. I don't doubt the course is vastly underrated and deserves more respect that it gets -- but would you place it as an equal with the fabulous four I just mentioned? All of those four would easily make my top 50 listing of America's best 100 courses. Clearly, such an inclusion takes the discussion to a whole lot higher level. Since I have not played Kirtland thus far -- I defer to your analysis ... for now.

Mike T:

Please don't be sooooooooooooo sure that Kirtland would bag the 3rd position if it was in Pennsy.

Have you played Huntington Valley or Rolling Green?

Thanks ...

[Dan_Belden]

Hey Matt:

  I do feel that Kirtland should be mentioned in the same group with TGC and MV, and Iverness.  It really is that good, and could be even better.  I believe it is in the top 100 classical courses, and probably should be in the top 50.  I would say it is a must play or visit for you.  Let me know when you go, too.   I love the place.  

[Mike_Trenham]

Matt:

I have played everything in Philly mentioned on the 3rd best in PA discussion (including Lancaster and Lehigh).  For me maybe all of the Flynn work in Philly detracts from each other, really how can you pick between Rolling Green, Huntington Valley, Lehigh, Lancaster, Philadelphia Country or Manufacturers they are all great, not to imply that they are similar.  As one person pointed out Philadelphia Cricket is a fave because it is different, same goes for Whitemarsh Valley.

Allison's Kirtland is so different from what I am familar with maybe this is impacting my feelings.  It's like those girls from Europe with the exotic accents...

I am from Philadelphia but I belive Ohio has a greater # of great courses than does Pennsylvania.  Two factors

1)  Ohio has a number of modest sized cities, like Columbus, Cleveland, Cincy, Akron, Youngstown, Canton and Dayton.  PA is dominated by Pittsburgh and Philly, with Harrisburg in the middle.  The weathy of different demographics (Blue bloods, New Money, Irish, Jewish, Quaker) in these cities needed to create their own great courses.  With the wealth concentrated in Philly and Pittsburgh it was easier to find a terrific place to be a member and associate with your "peers".  Clubs are much more open today than in the past but it is an undeniable factor that helped create the inventory of courses in existance.

2)  It takes money to build courses in America and Ohio's economy has grown at a much more even pace over the last 100 years than has PA's.  This resulted in a lot of great courses from before the great depression (like PA) and a much better selection of modern courses than found in PA.  Ohio has The Golf Club and Muirfield Village which were create ages before any modern course in PA of any importance.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan B:

I will certainly put Kirtland on the Ward "hit list" for sure. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Mike T:

I appreciate your comments but a few retorts are in order.

First, I would concede Ohio has the better combination of private and public courses -- much of that coming about because of the profusion of all the different cites you mentioned and the simple fact that much of the Keystone State is truly rural and the market has not allowed for that sort of growth in the daily fee arena. Pennsy is likely the worst big state (sorry you advocates of Rhode Island!) when comparing the quality of its private to public golf courses.

You do make a good point that the combination of TGC and MV from a modern perspective would likely trump anything from Pennsy from a similar time period -- the best I could offer would be Huntsville in the Wilkes-Baare area and Doak's original Stonewall in Elverson. Clearly, the Buckeye State has the edge.

I do take exception to your characterization of Pennsy just being Pittsburgh, Phillie and Harrisburg. How about the Lancaster / Reading area? Erie? Scranton? Allentown / Bethlehem?

The private side of clubs in Pennsy is no less equal than its counterpart in Ohio. You have many interesting clubs in the Keystone State that are well done but get very little
fanfare -- Fox Chapel, Scranton CC, Pittsburgh Field Club are three that come quickly to mind. There are a host of towns in Pennsy that have developed private clubs in little out of the way places -- I mean how isolated is Fleetwood the home of Moselem Springs!

I can't comment about Kirtland other than to say it does look quite impressive -- but Huntington Valley isn't chump change either. Ditto the qualities of the other Flynn layouts in the Phillie area. The issue for Phillie is that with so many top courses it becomes difficult for anyone to pick the first among equals and as a consequence it's also possible for people to simply lump them all together and not really give the kind of critical individual acclaim they rightly deserve.

Let's not forget that for a time Ohio had rated among America's best such lackluster architectural wonders as Coldstream and even Firestone / South is really one dimensional. Ditto the fanfare attached to Double Eagle -- where is the architectural heft there besides the superb conditioning?

Mike, I respect what Dan and others say about Kirtland -- but I have to say this in conclusion -- for a course to be lumped in with TGC, Inverness, Camargo and MV is truly a big time recommendation. I'll be most interested in seeing the course and weighing in when that happens. Thanks.

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