[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Nor are Billy Bell courses great,but they usually contain a lot of good holes that the whole golf handicap spectrum can enjoy.  In the winter, I am a regular on a few of his designs.  My usual partners range from 30hdcp to PGA tour members--the latter do play out of private courses, but always seem to enjoy San Luis Rey Downs.  The Friday Morning Skins game gets great players because the course is challenging and the high handicap players feel they can compete against the pros.  Compared to all but a few courses built in the last 30 years in SoCal, Bell's courses almost seem great!  

[ForkaB]

San Luis Rey Downs.  The Friday Morning Skins game gets great players because the course is challenging and the high handicap players feel they can compete against the pros.  

RMD

What you have said above may well best define what is meant by "greatness" vis a vis GCA (at least IMO).  And yet, I am sure that most of us (inclduing me) have never before played or even heard of San Luis Rey Downs.  Why might this course be better (or worse) than, say, Riviera?

Thanks in advnace

Rich

[Allan Long]

Since you also started the Industry Hills thread, I assume you are referencing Billy Bell, Jr.

San Luis Rey Downs is a good test of one's game, but like many of Bell Jr.'s other So. Cal. designs, probably low on most (non-So Cal) folks radar screens. Like many Bell Jr., courses, it has some good holes, but whether it be shot values, routing or public perception, his courses don't seem to inspire, or get the
recognition as those done by his father.

Although Bell, Jr., did a great deal of work in Southern California, I don't think that one can say his courses don't measure up to other So Cal offerings because he mass produced. Maybe it was budget. Maybe it was he didn't have the talent of his father. I have not lived in that area for 10 years, but compared to what was offered when I grew up there, if you played one of his courses, you would get your money's worth, and your game tested.

Why is it better or worse than Riviera or any other course? I don't know how to answer that fairly. I'm sure you would get 10 different answers if you asked 10 different people. I don't think you could judge it fairly against say a Riviera, LACC or Bel-Air, but rather more of the courses in the middle-tier of So Cal golf.

[Bill_McBride]

I played three rounds in Tucson the end of January and really enjoyed the two Bell courses I played a lot.  Tucson CC and Randolph Golf Club North Course were both well routed, took good advantage of limited topography and were a lot of fun to play.  I would characterize both as parkland rather than desert courses.  Greens were flattish in some cases, pretty convoluted in a few cases, and well bunkered.  Neither would be in my top 100 but I would be more than happy to play each next year if we return to Tucson.

The third course we played was Rio Rico about 45 minutes south of Tucson, almost to Nogales.  This is a 30 year old Robert Trent Jones Sr layout and had the aircraft carrier tees to prove it.  Pretty strong layout with good use of perimeter hills.  The strong winds and chilly weather made the course play tougher than it would have under more benign conditions.  All in all I preferred the Bell courses, more variety in the green sites and smaller greens.   Overall a more sporty feeling than Rio Rico.

[DMoriarty]

I played three rounds in Tucson the end of January and really enjoyed the two Bell courses I played a lot.  Tucson CC and Randolph Golf Club North Course were both well routed, took good advantage of limited topography and were a lot of fun to play.  I would characterize both as parkland rather than desert courses.  Greens were flattish in some cases, pretty convoluted in a few cases, and well bunkered.  Neither would be in my top 100 but I would be more than happy to play each next year if we return to Tucson. . . .

All in all I preferred the Bell courses, more variety in the green sites and smaller greens.   Overall a more sporty feeling than Rio Rico.

I think you may be ringing the wrong Bell on at least one of the courses.  Randolf Park is credited to Billy P. Bell (1930.)   He and his son Billy F. are also credited with the Tuscon CC in 1949 but I am not clear on just how much Billy P. had to do with these later works.  
_____________

That being said, I agree that some of Billy F.'s work is pretty good.  I've had many enjoyable rounds on his courses.   But that being said, his courses (the one's I've seen) should never be confused with great architecture, either.  I think the previous threads on Billy F. have focused on whether his architecture (namely TP, which I consider to be a pretty good but not great course) deserves the accolades it has received.  

I would agree that his work is better than much of what has been built in the last 30 years.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

So, all in all, it sounds like SLRD would be a very worthwhile place to while away a friday morning. The club's acronym probably applies to enunciation after an hour or so at the 19th, win or lose the skins game.

[Forrest Richardson]

Bell, Sr. had better sites, I believe. I'm currently remodeling two Bell, Sr. courses and one Bell, Jr. course — perhaps a second next year.

Tommy Nacarrato is a Bell expert. Why? I do not know.

Check out the following if you feel you need an extra "fix" of Mr. Bell ,Sr.:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=8875

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Looks like a great place to play and hang out!
From the website: www.slrd.com

“This course (San Luis Rey Downs) is the place where I plagiarized most of my weird TV lines.  Everybody had a nickname, and a few golfers had served time.  San Luis Rey Downs was a place where my friends were, and I enjoyed every minute of their company.  After you play this game enough, you learn that you can play the best looking, most immaculately conditioned golf course in the world, but if you don’t enjoy the company, the course’s condition matters not.  I enjoy San Luis Rey Downs.”

Gary McCord

Golf  For Dummies

[Jeff Fortson]

Forrest,

I mentioned it to Tommy tonight but there is a William P. Bell muni in Phoenix that I LOVE.  I know it may sound crazy but it's Encanto.  You probably know of it since you live in Phoenix.  

My father grew up playing there and still plays there twice a month with his old golfing buddies.  He's taken me there a few times and I just love the place.  So simple, plenty of width, not overly penal and yet very strategic and fun.  Some holes aren't the same as they used to be, like #1 and #9 due to the creation of the driving range but overall there are at least 13 original green sites I believe.

You can't much of a better bargain in Phoenix.  It's like $20 to play and certally located.  Best of all you can play in like 3 hours in the early morning and it's very walkable.

Anyway, just thought I'd get your opinion.


Jeff F.

[Brad Klein]

The younger Billy Bell might have done some good holes, but I'd love to see if he ever did a routing that was any good. He did not utilize the natural features at Torrey Pines when there was no Coastal Commission to blame (I believe). His Idaho Falls CC from 1966 is about the worst routing I have ever seen.

[Forrest Richardson]

Encanto is a pleasant layout. That's about all, besides its great location, location, location. I was not wild about the "improvements" made there. Fortunately the bloke who ran the City's golf division is now gone.

Brad, I believe you can blame Mrs. Bell (Sr.) for the routings. Tommy Nacarrato discovered a while back that Mrs. Bell often did routings for Mr. Bell...and even continued to do so for her son.

One characteristic of Bell's routings — that I like — is the various angles he created, even on sites that most would have used parellel holes and right angles. Bell, Sr. seemed to, in the process of his designs, create triangles that appear almost as if by pattern through his layouts. I'm now using some of these "wasted" spaces, and feel guilty for doing so. But, with tight sites from the beginning, loads of bordering development, and very unsafe consitions ow many years later, we simply have had to wedge some holes into these areas.

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