[Tom_Doak]

The discussion of #10 at Riviera and the love of many people here for Seth Raynor's limited palette caused me to wonder:  what other holes would you copy for general use on other design projects?

Everyone who wishes to respond, please list four par-3's, ten par-4's, and four par-5's.  Try to choose holes which depend on interesting design rather than their setting, because obviously you can't build the 18th hole at Pebble Beach just anywhere.  [Although, if you'd be happy building that hole next to a man-made pond, you're welcome to include it.]  Ideally the holes would be adaptable to flat land, but you're allowed to cheat a little.

I have not really thought about my answers yet but I will in the next couple of days.  The Eden and the Redan are likely to be on it; the Biarritz is not.  Too formal for me.

[JNC Lyon]

Par Threes:
Short Hole
7th Winged Foot
3rd Oak Hill (East)
17th Merion

Par Fours:
Raod Hole at NGLA
10th Riviera
5th Pinehurst No. 2
14th ANGC
Leven at NGLA
15th Winged Foot
Mackenzie Prize Winner
3rd Ocean Course
8th Pine Valley
7th Oak Hill (East)

Par Fives:
13th ANGC
15th ANGC
1st Riviera
16th Ocean Course

[gookin]

Great question.  My first thought was all the holes I would want to copy are that way because of the unique use of the ground they are on.  To name a few favorite holes being #16 Cypress, #10 Augusta, #13 Pine Valley, #16 & 17 at Upper Cascades, #16 & 17 at Merion.  I hate the idea of playing a hole that is "#375" from an architect's design book. All that matters is that the crew running the dozers make it to the job site. But in the same breath, I am enamored by MacDonald and Raynor who successfully use the same features over and over. I get great pleasure from comparing redans, edens, and biarritzs from their different courses. For me, the sense of history that comes with each encounter adds to the enjoyment of play. All that said, I will try to figure out my selection of 18 holes in hope of resolving this personal dilemma.

[ed_getka]

Par 3's
#6 NGLA Short
#5 Kingsley Club

Par 4's
#13 Crystal Downs
#9 Cypress Point
#11 Rustic Canyon
#8 Pebble Beach
#8 Kingsley Club
#6 Pacific Dunes
#4 Barona Creek
#17 Yale
#8 NGLA

Par 5's
#12 Plainfield
#14 Sand Hills
#1 Sand Hills

I'll add the rest later.

[Paul_Turner]

Some GB&I examples, all fairly flat:

5th Royal Worlington
9th Lytham
6th West Sussex
7th Hoylake

10th St George's Hill
12th Walton Heath Old
12th Swinley Forest
4th Royal Portrush
3rd Royal Worlington
14th Ganton
13th Sandwich
11th Sunningdale Old
14th County Sligo
8th Addington New?? (NLE)


16th Walton Heath
8th Brancaster (don't use water)
17th Carnoustie (or 6th)
6th Sunningdale New (green!)

[CHrisB]

Here are 18 holes I’d love to see copied, and all should (?) fit well over flat land.
Italics = someone please copy this hole soon!

Par 3’s:
Duel Hole (#7) at San Francisco GC
Reverse-Redan
Postage Stamp
#6 at Old Town (fallaway hood-of-your-car green in front)

Par 4’s:
Road Hole
#10 at Riviera
#16 at The Old Course
#2 at Pinehurst
#16 at Merion
#13 at CC of Charleston (my absolute favorite Raynor green)
#14 at Pasatiempo
#4 at Spyglass Hill
#10 Yeamans Hall (diagonal toilet-seat green)
#13 at Salem CC

Par 5’s:
Long Hole (#14) at St. Andrews
#4 at Bethpage Black
#13 at Augusta National
#9 at Muirfield

(Wow…there went my afternoon; I was heading out to the course and saw this thread, then had to sit there and figure this out all in one sitting. Tom Doak—don’t do that to me again!)

[cary lichtenstein]

This is such a great thread;

I would include holes that have great green/sand trap complexes such as:

#17 Pebble

[Cliff Hamm]

Have to echo Augusta 13.  There is no more exciting hole in golf than a par 4.5 and Augusta's 13th is at the top of the list.

[cary lichtenstein]

15 and 16 Cypress

[Jeff Fortson]

Par 3's

Redan
#11 Shinnecock
#10 WFW
Short


Par 4's

#6 Creek
Cape
#6 WFW
#16 Pasatiempo
Road
#16 TOC
#8 NGLA
#5 Pinehurst 2
#7 Cruden Bay
#14 Royal Dornoch


Par 5's

#13 ANGC
#14 TOC
#16 Shinnecock
#4 La Quinta Mountain Course (I know this seems out of place with my other picks but I absolutely love this hole)



Jeff F.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, taking out setting dependent circumstances with dominating physical terrain features that are integral to the hole, I think we can only speak in terms of pattern holes like C.B. and his posse used as templates.  

At first I wanted to list just favorite holes starting with the Par 3s, and my first list came off the top of my head as:

6 Riviera
17 Sand Hills
11 Wild Horse
17 Whistling STraits

Then I thought, that isn't right because particularly 17 Whistling is dependent on the drop off to the lake as 18 Pebble is dependant on the ocean front.  And, 17 Sand Hills is sort of dependent on the green site triangularly set between 3 blowout hummocks.  That leaves 6 Riviera, or 17 Bayside (Proctor-Axeland) as a theme of bunker in middle of green, that is repeatable in concept.  But I don't know how many times I'd want to see it repeated, no matter how much I find it exciting.  11 Wild Horse is in the tradition of great short holes.  While not a short island surrounded by sand like the CB-Raynor themes, a great short hole with guarding bunkers, big green movement and trouble through the green, none the less.  Of course, another theme hole that is being repeated more often is the water Island.  Again, exciting but no need to make it a template, IMHO.

Par 5s, Long !14 St Andrews TOC, would be my first pattern theme.  A wide field of play with a mine field of trouble to strategise around.  Then a tempting 2 go for it in 2 par 5 with imediate proximity to trouble next to the green with dire consequences if missed wrong side or coming up short.  A long demanding tee shot par 5 with less trouble at the green, making the tee shot singularly confined to accuracy with easier second and third if you can manage the tee ball.  Anotherwords one par 5 with temptation and dire consequence trouble on the green end, the other with the difficulty up front off tee.  Then another par 5 that has the bite off (like 18 Pebble).  And perhaps a par 5 that bends drawoff tee and fade off second.

Par 4s that exhibit the drivable or tempting possibilities like 10 Riviera, or that hole at Phoenix that they all try to drive with water left and deep swale right and bunker in LZ.  The long dogleg par 4 with drive over corner of trouble optimal and long run to green with one side open and other big trouble like Road Hole ST Andrews.  A wide field of play with multiple LZ options and hazards in the middle like MacKenzie's prize or Ginger beer #4 TOC, or Strategy of Seth and CBs.  A Bottle hole, a Leven, and a balance of doglegs moving L->R and R<-L.  A down hill big tee ball runner, and an uphill march.  At one cambered FW running dangerously anti banked out of FW and one using a slope into a speed slot into a fairway.

I didn't name too many holes because there are just way too many to say this one or that is a template sort of example.  I think it is more a question of concept than copycatting.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm still working on my list, but probably over half my final choices are listed above.

I'm trying to be a bit more circumspect about choosing holes which could be realistically reproduced.  I guess there are a fair number of hilly sites where you could try the Duel Hole at SFGC, but it won't work on flat ground.  The 13th at Augusta is not exactly flat, either.  And Ed is a bit optimistic in thinking he could ever produce a worthy replica of the 9th at Cypress Point or the 8th at Pebble Beach!

[Steve Lapper]

Great idea! In line with Tom's wish to leave certain natural features out that overwhelmingly influence the hole's architecture (rather than the other way around), here's a go:

Par 3's;

15 Kingston Heath
12 Augusta
Redan, North Berwick Style or NGLA #4
Postage Stamp, Royal Troon or Pine Valley #10

Next Best:
17  Sand Hills
11  Shinnecock
5 Royal Melbourne West
17 TPC
10 Winged Foot West
2 Royal Dornoch
14 Royal Portrush
6 New South Wales

Par 4's;

Royal Melbourne West 6th
Royal Melbourne West 10th
Pine Valley #2 or #13 (Rotate  )
Seminole #6
Road Hole #17, St. Andrews
Riveria #10
14 Royal Dornoch (Foxy)
9 Royal County Down
14 Shinnecock
18 Winged Foot West

Next Best:
15 or 5 Bethpage Black
6 (or 11) Quaker Ridge
10 or 3 Oakmont
5 Pinehurst #2
7 Sand Hills
9 (or Cypress Point
8 Prairie Dunes
12 Southern Hills
9 Maidstone
15 or 4 Royal St. Georges
16 Merion
17 NGLA


Par 5's

7 or 15 Pine Valley
13 Augusta
16 Shinnecock
4 Bethpage Black
12 Plainfield
18 Kapalua
5 New South Wales (cheating a bit w/ the ocean )
6 Carnoustie
4 Valderrama
16 Sand Hills

Next Best:

17 Old Head
1 Sand Hills (only because it is truly mother nature's best 5, not mans)
14 and 7 Friars Head
3 Fenway
16 Olympic
9 Oakmont

What a great winter month mental exercise with the reward of freshened memories...thanks!

[Cory Lewis]

Par 3

#6 Winged Foot(East)
Redan
#9 Myopia Hunt
#16 Carnoustie, burn could be replicated easily I think

Par 4

#5 Pinehurst No.2
#5 Royal Dornoch
#16 Pasatiempo
#4 Fishers Island-Punchbowl/Alps
#2 Plainfield
#11 NGLA
#5 Bethpage Black
#2 Pinehurst No.2
#12 Myopia Hunt
#17 St. Andrews


Par 5

#14 St. Andrews
#12 Plainfield
#4 Bethpage Black
#3 Ridgewood (East)

[John Kirk]

I can't possibly name eighteen worthy candidates; my knowledge of great courses is limited, when compared to the regulars here.  I'd like to nominate one.

#13 at Stanford is a flat 430 yarder, with a wide fairway.  There is a short right fairway bunker, and a long left fairway bunker.  It's easy for the average player to clear the right bunker, but the left bunker gathers pulls and hooks.  Clearing the left bunker takes a big drive, but the green opens up from there.

The green is oblong from front left (low) to back right (high).  Greenside, there is a front left bunker and a right bunker alongside the green.  There is also a bunker in the middle of the fairway, about 60-70 yards from the green, to challenge the mid-handicap player.

Everything is clearly visible, and visually pleasing from the tee.  A great, simple hole.

[CHrisB]

I guess there are a fair number of hilly sites where you could try the Duel Hole at SFGC, but it won't work on flat ground.

Tom,
Don't let that stop you. It's too good of a hole not to replicate somewhere, so please find a hill somewhere and copy it! Preferably on a public course so I won't have to sneak on the property and play it...

[ed_getka]

Tom,
  I actually thought about #8 Pebble, and envisioned the same shape of hole at Lost Dunes with that nasty grass they have there, and thought the hole would still be just as great architecturally.

#9 at Cypress Point, obviously can't be done with flat ground, but the angle of attack strategy and shallow green certainly could be.

[ian]

Tom,

This is one of the better questions in a while.

I choose flat or near flat holes only so that all could be built on a poor site or adapted to a better site. I thought this a more ratioanle approach than picking 18 great holes on wonderful terrain. I also choose holes where trees are not a factor

5's - all have tremendous strategy on a fairly flat piece of ground

-17th Muirfiled(nine would be fine too)
-16th at Walton Heath
-14th at St Andrews
-6th at Carnoustie
(hon mention 11th at TPC Sawgrass)

4's, these rely on different types of minor elevation change or finding a small landform for a green site

-10th lehigh, slow downhill hole
-5th merion, relying on cross-slope
-10th riviera, flat but perfect
-11th sunningdale, slightly raised green
-6th seminole, could be built on flat site

-2nd carnoustie, flat site
-1st Philadelphia CC (what an opener)
-3rd pinehurst, flat hole
-16th at St. Andrews, flat hole with great green
-11th at Stafford CC (Travis's best green)

par 3's (sticking to flat sites.)

-15th at north Berwick, the origional
-8th royal troon
-4th Hollywood (it was flat )
-11th st. andrews
hon. mention (Jaspar 15th)

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Par 3's  The above posts contain them                             Par 4's    13 Bethpage Red          Road Hole     10 Rancho Santa Fe    1  GCMC   10 Creek         13 Inwood                Par 5's    16 PGA West     15 Victoria Club (Riverside, Ca.)   8  LACC   14 Casa de Campo    5 Shinnecock   8 Cherry Valley (Garden City, NY)   9/12 Garden City CC   16 Garden City CC   17 Seawane  3 Inwood  

[Doug Siebert]

Off the top of my head...



Par 3's:

Eden TOC
Postage Stamp Troon
Redan (either)
#12 ANGC


Par 4's:

Road Hole TOC
#16 TOC
#10 Riviera (stuck in my mind right now)
#10 Crail Craigshead
#9 Muirfield (better hole when played as a 465 par 4, IMHO)
#14 Dornoch
#18 Harbour Town
#2 North Berwick
#9 Prestwick
#11 Old Ballybunion



Par 5's:
Long Hole (TOC)
ANGC #13 (not flat enough to fit or is slant OK?)
#14 Carnoustie (with a "classic course" ball )
#1 Sand Hills

[Matthew Mollica]

A list of Aussie Holes for you all, from Melbourne's Sand Belt
built mostly, but not exclusively, on flat terrain. Emphasis largely on accuracy not length, especially the par fours. The 3's have a variety in length, and there are reachable par 5's, as well as genuine 3 shot holes.



Par 3's

Kingston Heath #10
Royal Melb West #5
Kingston Heath #15
Victoria #16

Par 4's

Royal Melb West #3
Kingston Heath #11
Victoria #15
Woodlands #4
Metropolitan #16
Kingston Heath #2
Royal Melb East #18
Kingston Heath #3
Kingston Heath #18
Metropolitan #1

Par 5's

Woodlands #15
Kingston Heath #7
Royal Melb East #17
Royal Melb West #2


Matthew

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I'm interested that, of those few holes mentioned above with which I am personally acquinted, not every one is excessively long.  Is there a course of under 6,000 yards to be made which still satisfies Tom's criteria?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Is there not another factor, namely, where the hole comes in the round?  For instance, one of the holes mentioned above is the 17th on The Old Course, the Road Hole.  Would it have the same fear factor and would its options of risky attack or safer conservative play be quite as decisive an element were the hole the 2nd or the 10th?

[John_McMillan]

I'm not sure I can come up with a full 18, but the topic is an interesting one.

The 8th hole at Pebble Beach was mentioned, which Tom noted would be difficult to reproduce on flat land.  While that's true, I still think there's an inland version of this hole waiting to be made - where a "difficult" piece of terrain substitutes for the chasm over the Pacific Ocean.  

One hole that hasn't made anybody's list yet is the 18th at St. Andrews.  You'd think that a short par-4 with a wide fairway and green feature which provides a range or strategic options should be a hole for replication.  Perhaps it's the low resistance to scoring that has kept it from being reproduced.

[McCloskey]

Interesting thread.
One hole that I never thought would make anybody's list finally showed up, the 18th at TOC.
We all have our own visions of what constitutes greatness, but my perception of the 18th is that it is the worst finishing hole ever in championship golf.
The drive is into the middle of wide open field.  You can hit anything off the tee.   The further you play toward the first "fairway" the better angle into the green and there is nothing to avoid in doing so.   The only thing you have to do is not hit it out of bounds right.
The green is surrounded on 2 sides by OB stakes.  Now that is clever.  LOL  and a deep grass swale in the front.   The green is sloping from right to left, but that is all there is to it.
I drive and a wedge.  If a good player EVER makes any score higher than par, he has really messed up.
Without the clever name of the grass hollow and the location downtown St. Andrews, what does this hole offer.   It it even a worse finishing hole than CP, imho.

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