[Ran Morrissett]

Crump, Fownes, etc were not professional golf course architects - far from it and yet they produced masterpieces (with others help, yes).Since WWII, what is the best course similarly built by a non-professional architect? Maybe I am having a bad day, but none of any lasting quality spring to mind.How can this be? There are plenty of successful business men today too who love golf and who have travelled extensively in the UK (and who could get random advice as well).I am not talking about another Oakmont but just a really neat course.

[TEPaul]

There certainly is one I know of: Red Tail G.C., Ontario.Although Donald Steele is the architect of record and did the design work, it was done hand in hand (from a brief) with Chris Goodwin, one of the two owners. Goodwin's effort was much like Crump in that the years from conception to final creation it was his life in any and every detail. He has some real talent for doing the right thing (for an amateur). He and his partner hit a home run in business and they really hit a home run with Red Tail. The golf course is a beautiful, low-key, strategic, minimalist design with a wonderful clubhouse and atmosphere (the place belongs to Goodwin and his partner and they have an interesting round table membership that they control to keep play down).Goodwin is a avid ornithologist and horticulturalist and student of golf architecture and a smart guy with good taste. He's also a good player. He lived with every detail and was smart enough to realize what he didn't know and to get good advice and to take it. A winning combination and so is Red Tail G.C.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Ran,Aren't you going to nominate Tidewater?  Geoff

[T_MacWood]

The first that came to mind was Pete Dye's fathers creation Urbana C.C., which is a wild roller-coaster 9-holer. But I'm not sure if it was built before or after WWII.Another amateur effort is Seven Lakes near Pinehurst which is the work of Peter Tufts. It's one of the few courses in that area that I haven't played, but I've heard good things from others.My choice, albeit a sentimental one, would be Sea Scape on the Outer Banks of No.Carolina and the work of Art"Feng Shui" Wall.In the late 70s and early 80s, I used to vacation in the area every year. A good friend and I played the course regularly.Sea Scape is a short course of a little over 6200 yds.(par 71, five par-3s & four par-5s)overlooking the Atlantic. It is made up of 6 or 7 holes amongst the dunes, 6 or 7 holes that  are cut through pines on rolling terrain, and the remaining holes a combination of both. Water comes into play on four holes. And although the course is about 300 yds. from the ocean, the wind is a constant factor.Sadly, sometime in the last ten or fifteen years, the course has been irrevocably altered. The wild serpentine dunes holes have been cleaned up. In the past a shot off the irregularly shaped fairways was in the sand, now the fairways have a more conventional shape and shot off the fairway finds newly planted grass.The best hole on the course #3 was a dogleg par-4 around a large dune and then over smaller dunes to the green. It is no more, replaced by a par-5 through newly constructed condos with grass off the fairway instead of dunes. The back nine also features a new multi-unit condo monstrosity.Another sad case where profit and greed won over good golf at its natural best.

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,I just played with Chris at Red Tail a month ago - you are right, both fascinating place and guy. Steele did the routing with Chris specifically doing the 14th hole, but upon reflection, I think his hands on approach qualifies under my question. What did you think of those greens? For medium size greens, the interior contours and pacing made them terrifying. Another thing I like about Steele's work both there and Skibo was the lack of bunkering.Tom, I know you are a good player; did you score anywhere near your handicap at Red Tail?

[TEPaul]

Ran:Glad to hear you played with Chris Goodwin at Red Tail. I haven't been there in awhile and I don't remember what I shot, but it wasn't a bad day. The only hole I questioned was the 8th but I think I parred it. I have an unusual game (and always have for a very low handicap). My friends kid me that I might be the world champion for short off the tee-the irons are pretty normal though. My short game I would put up against anyone, and I see no reason why I can't get up and down from anywhere. I just hit it incredibly straight and in play-losing a ball is about as frequent as an NYC blackout. Until recently I was very rarely in the 60's or out of the 70's no matter what or where. My game is actually an interesting one to lay on a course from the context of elasticitly and validity of strategic design.As to the contours of the greens at Red Tail, I'm sorry to say I don't remember, because until recently I neither knew or noticed zilch about design or architecture.Because of a project I'm now involved in I started doing research on design about a eighteen months ago. I came upon Geoff Shackelford through his email address in the back of one of his books. By the way, do you guys who read and contribute to this site have any idea how brilliant he is in this area? The emails are into the hundreds if not a thousand at this point and I've gotten a great education. The pisser is this: he's literally half my age and he thinks he's too young to be taken seriously and I realize I wasted twenty five years of good golf before I came to realize the ramifications and complexities of design. Anyway, keep the info coming-with more Goodwins and more Shackelfords there will be more good courses for us to play in the future!

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,That is quite interesting - I felt that day I couldn't get it up and down in a punchbowl green with the flag in the middle. I truly felt the course got narrower and narrower on its tolerance as you approached the green - my favourite type of challenge.As for Geoff, is he actually doing some hands on work? He certainly knows his stuff, having hung around this site.  

[Tom_Doak]

Redtail!?  I think you gents are very confused about the differences between being a good client and becoming a designer.Chris Goodwin was kind enough to share with me the detailed involvement of Donald Steel and particularly his top associate, Tom Mackenzie, in fact giving me a book full of Tom's notes and sketches and sketch revisions for the greens and bunkers.  Chris had to rebuild the 14th hole after a tornado tore it up, but he would  the first to say he didn't design the course.I am sure Chris had more input on the design than he would modestly admit, as all good clients should, but there is a huge difference between that and actually taking responsibility for the design, and Chris is also smart enough to know that.The reason there are so few "non-professionals" working today is the cost factor:  few would be bold enough to risk millions of their money on their own inexperience.  They're better off hiring an architect and confining their ideas to suggestions.The only good courses I know which would qualify under my definition of "non-professional design" are Tidewater, in Myrtle Beach, and Rich Harvest Links north of Chicago, which I haven't yet seen.  Ken Tomlinson fired Rees Jones after his initial routings for Tidewater, and built the course by directing the shapers himself -- that's designing!  [I think the course is somewhat overrated because it was excellent land for Myrtle Beach, and because it was "a good story," but it is better than a lot of professional architects would have done.]It's easy to have sound opinions on golf architecture, but as Pete Dye taught me a long time ago, the ability to get your ideas onto the ground is the true test of an architect.

[Ran Morrissett]

to Tom Doak:Your response is the whole reason for my post. Why did Fownes or Crump risk the then equivalent of "millions" for their designs? Their equivalent doesn't exist today? That is super hard for me to believe, with all the egos and money flying around Wall Street/Silicon Valley/etc.. Hell, if John M. had six cents to his name, he would be out somewhere with a spade and shovel trying to replicate a green at Worlington.Something isn't adding up.

[T_MacWood]

When you think about it most of the early courses cited as the work of 'ameteur architects' were built by hand or horse power. There was no need for expensive heavy equipment and therefor time wasn't a major consideration. And I would think it would be pretty easy to get your hands on a few horses and inexpensive labor.I don't know, but I don't there was a need for irregation systems, I believe that development came later. And I wonder how sophisticated the green constuction was back then. With sandy conditions like PV and PB they probably didn't do whole lot.The non-professional wonder and their courses are always mentioned and deservedly so, but when you think about it, just about every famous architect of that era had a similar start to their career.Living in Indiana, I don't think livestock will be a problem. Now if you can just find away to get John M. hooked up with one of those scoopers...

[TEPaul]

Maybe Redtail and Chris Goodwin is not a good example or answer to the post question.I don't believe I said he designed or took credit for the design of Redtail. What I meant was he had a vision about a course for a long time (actually it was Goodwin and his partner, John Drake, the silent one)which sort of proves the point. Apparently he had the vision long before he ever heard of Donald Steele. When they got together he was delighted that they were on the same page as much as they were. The point is he did the research and he put an incredible amount of time and energy into any and every detail. He realized what he didn't know, he got the right people and he didn't fight their advice. I sort of recall something to the effect that once you know what you are trying to accomplish, how and why, the rest really boils down to good old common sense.The question is for Goodwin to answer, but I've always been under the impression that his vision and what Redtail is today is to a large extent one and the same.

[rwrist]

Southerness golf course in Dumfries was design in 1947.  This is a classic links course.  Designer is listed as Mackenzie Ross, not sure whether he was a professional architect or not (relative of Donald)?

[John Sessions]

RanI truly believe the deal is this: the rich  don't have as deep a conviction as to what is good architecture any more. They are completely confused: ask any member of the Atlantic and you will know what I mean. Without that strong conviction, nobody will put their neck on the line.

[Clark]

Ocean Forest.

[TEPaul]

Southerness!!What and where is that and what a great name!? Does anyone know if there's a "Northerness" anywhere? If not, I'm taking that name when I build a course around here.

[JohnV]

Southerness is in the small town of the same name on the southern coast of Scotland.  Yes, there is a southern coast.  Look on the west side of Scotland and go as far south as you can, around the point from Turnberry.  There you'll find Southerness.  It is on Solway Firth.  It is a good, flat links course that has hosted the British Amateur among others I belive.  As for Mackenzie Ross, he was a professional golf architect who worked with Tom Simpson.  Among other courses, he is responsible for the rebuilding of Turnberry after World War II.The course is fun, with one hole, the 12th that is one of the best around.  When we played it a few years ago, it was the only time I've seen an 8-some.  8 players playing alternate shot in one group.  They were having a great time  

[Joel_Stewart]

Have their been any changes or additions to this list in 6 years?   There is a course in Palm Desert, CA which I can't remember the name and possibly Sheep Ranch which Tom Doak had a hand in which may not qualify.

[THuckaby2]

Joel, you are really on a roll dredging up ancient threads.

 

Methinks an obvious addition here - at least for us NorCals - is Bayonet/Blackhorse.  It's kinda tough to call the great General McClure a professional architect.

[Mike_Sweeney]

That I have played, Twisted Dune by Archie Struthers and Pine Barrens by Eric Bergstal. Both were the course developers, and both are in New Jersey.

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel, you are really on a roll dredging up ancient threads.

Tom:
"Losers live in the past. Winners learn from the past and enjoy working in the present toward the future". Denis Waitley

Whats interesting are the hundreds of people who have participated in the past but don't anymore?

[THuckaby2]

So I gather this is learning from the past?  Sounds good to me...

As for the non-participators, well what the hell, people do come and go.  Let's hope we all have lives....

 

[David_Tepper]

I have not played it, but I would submit Pat Ruddy's European Club south of Dublin, Ireland for consideration.

[PThomas]

I say keep the old thread coming Joel...as always people can ignore if they want to.....

I know that Pete designed P Dye GC in VA, but I wonder how much input the owner has there...didn't they have legendary battles which may indicate he had a lot, or perhaps only tried to...

[Jason Topp]

The Classic near Brainerd, MN - built by the superintendant Scott Hoffman.  http://www.maddens.com/page/174-5821.htm

Incredible setting.  Big elevation changes but walkable.

Great par five 1st - 480-540 downhill with prevailing wind

This is the view after a good drive (these images are from the course's web site)







Fantastic Cape third - 300-380, green is driveable if tees are up.  Multiple options off tee and into green:



 
Four of five par fives are reachable depending on wind and gamble off the tee

In addition to 1, this is the green on the 10th - 475 yards


I view the 16th as the best par five but the picture on their website does not do it justice.

Five par threes range from 150-220 and require an assortment of shots.  Examples:

The 2nd (150-180 yards):


The 17th (around 150 yards):



The holes on this post were picked for the quality of pictures as much as the quality of the holes.  Nearly every hole is extremely interesting.  I have played there around 30-40 times.  It is pretty tough for the average player, unless s/he moves up to the correct tees.

[PThomas]

I played there last year Jason; it was pretty nice!

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